United Air forcibly removes passenger on overbooked flight

[Fargo]

Did you skim the referenced Rule 25? There is a hierarchy governing who gets pulled; better not to fly on a cheap seat or on an airline on which you have little status if you absolutely positively have to get there. If you have to get there, don't book the last flight out. The airlines have quite sophisticated algorithms to recover from large scale disruptions like weather, computer outages etc. It is quite possible that that crew needed to reach their destination in time to get 'adequate rest', which is mandated by law, so they would be legal to crew a flight the next day that was important to the recovery plan. By pissing off one passenger, who likely isn't a very important united customer or he would have had status, they may have saved themselves tens of thousands of dollars by preventing the need to cancel one or more flights the next day.

And the captain of your flight can have you removed for any reason or no reason at all, he has absolute authority over (and responsibility for) the aircraft once that cabin door closes. there are details here that we are not privy to. He might sue, but it will go nowhere

Ignoring that rule 25 is about people denied boarding, not boarded passengers; when I enter into a contract with an airline by buying a ticket, do I get to provide them a list of my rules that they are required to comply with? Plus, even if it was an effective contract provision, contracts of adhesion are largely unenforceable and construed in a way favorable to the non-sophisticated party.

If you think that this whole thing was cost-effective for United you are delusional. Their costs on this will be well into the millions and that is not including potential lawsuit costs.

 

[BugI02]

So in effect, there are only four major US airlines left; American, Delta, United and Southwest. There are also a few niche players like Jet Blue and Spirit. So you boycott United, but you need to fly. Do you not just recreate the overbooking problem, possibly worse; at the other airlines?

It's a zero sum game and you are cutting yourself off from perhaps 30% of the available seating, plus there are some places where United is the only service or at least the only convenient service (an example I'm familiar with is Idaho Falls, ID)

 

[PistolBob]

United is the worst run airline on the face of the earth. They left me stranded three times in 2015...I would sooner drive than fly on a United flight. It's one sorry sorry crapheap of a company.

 

[Fargo]

So in effect, there are only four major US airlines left; American, Delta, United and Southwest. There are also a few niche players like Jet Blue and Spirit. So you boycott United, but you need to fly. Do you not just recreate the overbooking problem, possibly worse; at the other airlines?

It's a zero sum game and you are cutting yourself off from perhaps 30% of the available seating, plus there are some places where United is the only service or at least the only convenient service (an example I'm familiar with is Idaho Falls, ID)

I would estimate that a significant portion of the public will now choose another airline over United, all other things being equal. That is a terrible place to put yourself from a marketshare position. That $10,000 in efficiency just cost them exponentially more.

There is a reason so many airlines have gone out of business and they weren't doing stuff quite like this.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Last time I flew was Denver to Indy. It was about the middle of December and some other airports had been hammered with weather so everything was all screwed up.

They (Frontier) ended up giving two passengers $1200 in credit, each, to take a later flight to Indy (about 6 hours later). It was a young couple and they were ecstatic.

 

[BugI02]

Ignoring that rule 25 is about people denied boarding, not boarded passengers; when I enter into a contract with an airline by buying a ticket, do I get to provide them a list of my rules that they are required to comply with? Plus, even if it was an effective contract provision, contracts of adhesion are largely unenforceable and construed in a way favorable to the non-sophisticated party.

If you think that this whole thing was cost-effective for United you are delusional. Their costs on this will be well into the millions and that is not including potential lawsuit costs.

Contract of Carriage Document
(revised February 17, 2017)


Transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by United Airlines, Inc. and Carriers doing business as United Express, are subject to the following terms and conditions, in addition to any terms and conditions printed on or in any ticket, ticket jacket or eticket receipt. To the extent there is a conflict between this Contract of Carriage and any terms and conditions printed on or in any ticket, ticket jacket or eticket receipt, this Contract governs. By purchasing a ticket or accepting transportation, the passenger agrees to be bound by these controlling terms of this Contract of Carriage, and no covenants at law or in equity shall be implied or incorporated. Note, only the English version of United’s Contract of Carriage governs the transportation of Passengers and Baggage provided by United Airlines, Inc. and Carriers doing business as United Express.

[4C] Once a Passenger obtains a Ticket indicating confirmed reserved space for a specific flight and date either from UA or its authorized agent, the reservation is confirmed even if there is no record thereof in UA’s reservation system.
EXCEPTION: Tickets shall not be valid if reservations are cancelled pursuant to Rule 5 or cancelled by the passenger or his/her representative.

RULE 5 CANCELLATION OF RESERVATIONS [No mention of boarding]

[5A] UA has the right to cancel reservations (whether or not confirmed) of any Passenger whenever such action is necessary to comply with any governmental regulation, upon any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense, or whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond UA’s control, (including, but not limited to acts of God, force majeure events, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or other disturbances, whether actual, threatened, or reported).

[5G] All of UA’s flights are subject to overbooking which could result in UA’s inability to provide previously confirmed reserved space for a given flight or for the class of service reserved. In that event, UA’s obligation to the Passenger is governed by Rule 25.

RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:
Request for Volunteers
UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:
Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.

Counsel sets too much store that in boarding the a/c some sort of irrevocable line is crossed beyond which the passenger's status cannot be modified. Color me delusional

 

[BugI02]

I would estimate that a significant portion of the public will now choose another airline over United, all other things being equal. That is a terrible place to put yourself from a marketshare position. That $10,000 in efficiency just cost them exponentially more.

There is a reason so many airlines have gone out of business and they weren't doing stuff quite like this.

Two of the four mentioned have been bankrupt already (some more than once) and are still flying. Emotionally, you want it to work that way; but it will not

 

[Fargo]

Counsel sets too much store that in boarding the a/c some sort of irrevocable line is crossed beyond which the passenger's status cannot be modified. Color me delusional

So you want to quote me a contract provision about being denied boarding but then say that boarding doesn't matter? You do know that contracts are construed against the drafting party right?

Plus, if you think that the legal ramifications end at potential breach of contract, you are missing a whole ton here.

 

[Fargo]

Two of the four mentioned have been bankrupt already (some more than once) and are still flying. Emotionally, you want it to work that way; but it will not

I said they would lose market share and profits, not that they would be bankrupt. You are the one who claimed this was an economically efficient move. That is simply delusional. At your $10,000 figure, 20 to 30 people booking with another airline makes this economically inefficient

 

[Leadeye]

Having piloted planes I can say that when the pilot in command says get off the plane, you get off the plane and that's the end of the story.

 

[KittySlayer]

United Airlines F'd up from a public relations standpoint.

When the police show up you do what you are told and if you don't like it deal with in court later.

People can be buttholes, doctors can be really big buttholes, airlines can be giant buttholes.

Chicago to Louisville is a five hour drive, hop in a car and solve the problem. Hire a car for your pilots. If you got booted rent a car and stick United with the bill. Plan, adapt, overcome.

 

[BugI02]

So you want to quote me a contract provision about being denied boarding but then say that boarding doesn't matter? You do know that contracts are construed against the drafting party right?

Plus, if you think that the legal ramifications end at potential breach of contract, you are missing a whole ton here.

I also quoted you rule 5, too - which references the cancellation of reservations (that which you believe entitles you to that seat) which then references Rule 25 solely to indicate how the selection of those denied are chosen. If you are denied a seat on the a/c, do you think your reservation for a seat on that flight is cancelled or not? Which rule do you think is subordinate to which?

If you want to track the case for however long it takes, please present the future results that prove me wrong and I will be humbled

And if you think United is responsible for damages and injury resulting from failure to obey the lawful instructions of personnel possessing police powers, perhaps you should offer the man your services. Sounds like a cake-walk

 

[Fargo]

I also quoted you rule 5, too - which references the cancellation of reservations (that which you believe entitles you to that seat) which then references Rule 25 solely to indicate how the selection of those denied are chosen. If you are denied a seat on the a/c, do you think your reservation for a seat on that flight is cancelled or not? Which rule do you think is subordinate to which?

If you want to track the case for however long it takes, please present the future results that prove me wrong and I will be humbled

And if you think United is responsible for damages and injury resulting from failure to obey the lawful instructions of personnel possessing police powers, perhaps you should offer the man your services. Sounds like a cake-walk

LOL, you think that the police enforcing United's purported contractual provisions is somehow automatically a lawful instruction?

Cop is already suspended, I doubt that either of us will ever know the outcome of the civil case as it is almost certain that the settlement will include a nondisclosure agreement for United's benefit.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Tell the passengers "we don't leave until that guy gets off the plane."

Then walk out.

 

[BugI02]

I would estimate that a significant portion of the public will now choose another airline over United, all other things being equal. That is a terrible place to put yourself from a marketshare position. That $10,000 in efficiency just cost them exponentially more.

There is a reason so many airlines have gone out of business and they weren't doing stuff quite like this.

I said they would lose market share and profits, not that they would be bankrupt. You are the one who claimed this was an economically efficient move. That is simply delusional. At your $10,000 figure, 20 to 30 people booking with another airline makes this economically inefficient

Perhaps I only imagined you were talking about existential effects for UAL. $10000 was made up from whole cloth to indicate relative scale. Considering it was an Airbus 320, a little research tells me it has 146 seats. The destination was Louisville, which has an average ticket price of $424.03, I will use that since I have no idea if the crew provided seats at the doctors expense were needed for a flight or where that flight might go. I will fill all seats nice overbooking (all seats full and then some) was a problem. Thus the potential for loss could easily exceed $61908.38 for that one flight if it had to cancel, and that is not the limit of the loss. That same crews duty day might involve two or three legs (depending on duration of each leg, they are duty time limited) and further cascades if the a/c is not available where the first crew would end their day but another crew would run another full days work. And if the airline is trying to recover from a service disruption the effects will likely be even more far reaching in that it will disrupt that effort. Don't be naive about the stakes that drive a decision like this

 

[Fizzerpilot]

I've been watching this. Now, remember, you are only seeing the very tail end of this altercation. Flights are oversold all day every day. This same scenario plays out routinely. However, it is not newsworthy because typically reasonable adults don't throw tantrums, requiring authorities to come remove them. You did not see what led up to this, you did not see his actions, hear his words...

Ablantant refusal to follow airline instructions, while in their aircraft, is a very bad idea. It sets into motion a series of threat levels that are taken very seriously. You don't become exempt from policy, because you throw a tantrum.

Now, the final 60 seconds shown on film, are intense, but you didn't see how it got to this point... therein lies the answer.

 

[BugI02]

I would estimate that a significant portion of the public will now choose another airline over United, all other things being equal. That is a terrible place to put yourself from a marketshare position. That $10,000 in efficiency just cost them exponentially more.

There is a reason so many airlines have gone out of business and they weren't doing stuff quite like this.

LOL, you think that the police enforcing United's purported contractual provisions is somehow automatically a lawful instruction?

Cop is already suspended, I doubt that either of us will ever know the outcome of the civil case as it is almost certain that the settlement will include a nondisclosure agreement for United's benefit.

Was the cop suspended because he lacked the authority he was exercising or because of excessive force. Was the removal of the passenger within United's rights or not?

 

[Fargo]

Perhaps I only imagined you were talking about existential effects for UAL. $10000 was made up from whole cloth to indicate relative scale. Considering it was an Airbus 320, a little research tells me it has 146 seats. The destination was Louisville, which has an average ticket price of $424.03, I will use that since I have no idea if the crew provided seats at the doctors expense were needed for a flight or where that flight might go. I will fill all seats nice overbooking (all seats full and then some) was a problem. Thus the potential for loss could easily exceed $61908.38 for that one flight if it had to cancel, and that is not the limit of the loss. That same crews duty day might involve two or three legs (depending on duration of each leg, they are duty time limited) and further cascades if the a/c is not available where the first crew would end their day but another crew would run another full days work. And if the airline is trying to recover from a service disruption the effects will likely be even more far reaching in that it will disrupt that effort. Don't be naive about the stakes that drive a decision like this

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that the flight in question was cancelled.

According to to the news story below, passengers started getting off and then the rest were ordered off.

Even if it was only delayed, I would say they had already lost money without considering any ripples...

Officer involved in dragging man off United flight put on leave | Chicago Sun-Times

 

[Fizzerpilot]

It was an Embraer 170. 70 seat aircraft

 

[Fizzerpilot]

Removal of a passenger is within the airlines right... even if it is simply due to overselling, weight restrictions, or insubordination