Universal (non)Religious Argument Thread

[Bill of Rights]

Real Men Love Jesus.

IBTL

With respect, I take some exception to this, RNM. I was raised Jewish. I do not practice Judaism per se today.. More like what my wife (who was raised Catholic) referred to once as "Jewish Lite" (that means it has 1/3 less guilt) Those religious traditions are the bases of our individual beliefs, but not the sum total of them. In short, neither of us is much fond of organized religions. With that background, I think you see where I'm coming from and why I cannot in any form of honesty say that I love Jesus... nor do I hate Him. I respect that you and many others, including my wife, view Him as your Lord and Savior, and more power to you with that.

Note that I said I take some exception, not that I'm offended, because I'm not. Perhaps I might modify your thought above:

Real (Christian) Men Love Jesus; All Real Men Respect Others' Beliefs

Would you agree with that?

That is the stated goal of some. Others just go into every thread with a pro-Christian slant, and cause as much trouble as they can until it's locked, and then say the threads are obviously too much trouble for the mods. I figure Christian posts will be banned. I also figure atheist posts, and those denigrating Christianity, will be allowed.

Actually, Joe, we're just going to ban YOUR posts. I kid, I kid. The suggestion you're discussing has been made to the mods. Considering the rants on both sides of the issue. I won't lie, I might be willing to consider the possibility of religious discussions not happening here, and here's why: I didn't send my daughter to school to hear her teacher's religious beliefs; I would not have sent her to church or taken her to synagogue to learn English, math, science, etc. I don't come to INGO to discuss Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, or any other religious system of belief. It would be wrong to remove only one, so if one must go because the topic is detracting from the purpose of this bulletin board, all must.
Please note that the above is NOT in any way to be taken as a policy statement at this time, it's only my personal thought process in an effort to be fair and reasonable to all. It is NOT any form of INGO policy. I said the suggestion had been made. I did not say it was being considered with any seriousness. Do know that before any sort of policy like that was imposed the mod team would discuss it at great length and no matter what our consensus, if Fenway does not agree, it will not happen.

FWIW, I'm not aware of any of the mods who does not have a personal belief and a personal relationship with God as each of us knows Him.

The same reason they fight in perfectly good threads about taking the family out shooting. They like to fight.

There are an awful lot of people that like to do this.. I really wish they would not- it makes that much more work for us and that means less time to enjoy INGO.

I don't have any problems with christians in real life or the internet. that said I do tend to dislike the preachy christians in real life and especially the internet when they are obviously being preachy but try to disguise it as any but. I say preach all the jesus stuff you want but don't get offended when/if someone flames you for it.

I saw a great phrase once on that font of great wisdom: The bumper sticker. It read: "Dear Lord, protect me from Your faithful followers!" I love that, because it's not insulting anyone, it's merely recognizing that some people are dissatisfied with others' answers to the God question AND feel they must change those answers. I am of the opinion that the only person with authority to change someone's opinion is that person, him- or herself, and then, only on his/her own initiative.

Respect. It's a hard word. It's an even harder deed.

^^This. (And techres, this is one reason you made such a great mod here. Deeds, not words. (Dagnabbit! Someone please rep this man... I can't rep him again yet.))

HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!


Oh, what a give away. Did you hear that, did you hear that, eh?

That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me?

You saw it didn't you?

And as heavy as this discussion has gotten and likely will get... We needed this bit of comic relief. Thanks to Monty Python and thanks to ATM for referencing it.

Blessings, all,
Bill

 

[Benny]

Real (Christian) Men Love Jesus; All Real Men Respect Others' Beliefs

Would you agree with that?

I do. I have several very close friends that have VERY different views with me according to religion...I love them all the same.

My second closest friend is an atheist and anyone on this planet would be hard pressed to find a better person than this guy.

I saw a great phrase once on that font of great wisdom: The bumper sticker. It read: "Dear Lord, protect me from Your faithful followers!" I love that, because it's not insulting anyone, it's merely recognizing that some people are dissatisfied with others' answers to the God question AND feel they must change those answers. I am of the opinion that the only person with authority to change someone's opinion is that person, him- or herself, and then, only on his/her own initiative.

So, so true.

^^This. (And techres, this is one reason you made such a great mod here. Deeds, not words. (Dagnabbit! Someone please rep this man... I can't rep him again yet.))

I'll get him for you...And if I have any left, you'll get one too.

 

[lovemachine]

Suck up!

J/K
That was great. I hate to see ALL religion topics banned on here. This is already such a great site, I don't think anything should be changed. I do think that there should be higher consequences for anyone that gets over board with it though. Maybe a bannation for a day or something like that. There's nothing wrong with starting a topic about religion. I enjoy reading threads about someone's great religious experience. I've even learned a lot on here about other religions. Like from Redneck, I've even learned a lot about the Church of Beaver. I didn't know those little critters had a religion!

I think we should give this another try. Ban some people if you have to. Let's try something like that first before you ban religious topics.

I mean, we're all adults right? At least most of us anyway....

 

[LCPer]

I have to agree with lovemachine46147. Let's not follow the rest of the world by making all pay for a few's mistakes. It is easy to punish everyone for for the errors of the few. I see this so often in everyday life. I think that may be part of the trouble with our society today. No one is held up to personal responsibility. When I was a kid and did something wrong I was punished, and my siblings did not have to suffer for my mistakes. I guess that is how I was taught personal responsibility.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/members/lovemachine46147.html

 

[Lars]

I have to agree with lovemachine46147. Let's not follow the rest of the world by making all pay for a few's mistakes. It is easy to punish everyone for for the errors of the few. I see this so often in everyday life. I think that may be part of the trouble with our society today. No one is held up to personal responsibility. When I was a kid and did something wrong I was punished, and my siblings did not have to suffer for my mistakes. I guess that is how I was taught personal responsibility.

While I agree with this sentiment, it's remarkably difficult to do the job some of us have been tasked with.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I do. I have several very close friends that have VERY different views with me according to religion...I love them all the same.

My second closest friend is an atheist and anyone on this planet would be hard pressed to find a better person than this guy.

And the man who is all but my brother is a devout Seventh Day Adventist and is the only person I have had fairly in depth discussions with regarding the Bible and spirtuality of his faith. Not because I had interest in the topic itself, but because I had interest in what was important to him. His and my beliefs and lifestyles are about as opposite end as you can get, yet oddly our moral codes have major intersections. About the only people I can't get along with are those who use their beliefs to judge me. And I'm not going to argue with them since that's like wrestling with the pig, you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. People like that are simply not a factor in my life and I refuse to engage them.

 

[johnb62]

I am a Christian. By that I mean a "born again" Christian. Yes, I used the dreaded words. But many people call themselves Christians yet really do not understand the true meaning of those words.

Anyway, my faith is the central most important aspect of my and my family's life. I really enjoy a good conversation about "religion". It is amazing these conversations can be kept civil and enlightening to all parties.

At the same time I work and interact everyday with people who may not agree with my beliefs. I do not force my beliefs on them and rarely does it even come up. Although I know I probably should be a little more willing to jump in and many times I miss a good chance to share my faith.

I guess my point is that whatever your beliefs people should be able to civilly discuss and have respect for each other. At the same time maybe not every conversation (or thread) is the place for an injection of "religion".

Since this is a religious thread I will repeat the words of Jesus...Unless a man is born again he can not see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Posting this is a stretch for me. Please take it in the spirit intended.

 

[lovemachine]

While I agree with this sentiment, it's remarkably difficult to do the job some of us have been tasked with.

If your talking about the Mods, isn't that why you guys are the mods and nobody else is? You guys can do it, I have "faith"

 

[Lars]

If your talking about the Mods, isn't that why you guys are the mods and nobody else is? You guys can do it, I have "faith"

Wouldn't it be better if you all could do it yourselves making our time on INGO nearly as enjoyable as yours?

 

[lovemachine]

Wouldn't it be better if you all could do it yourselves making our time on INGO nearly as enjoyable as yours?

That would be great. But most of the people on here aren't adults like you and me. The ones who act like kids are the ones who have been on here for at least a year and have 2,000+ posts.
You had it right before. You guys ARE babysitters.

 

[SavageEagle]

That would be great. But most of the people on here aren't adults like you and me. The ones who act like kids are the ones who have been on here for at least a year and have 2,000+ posts.
You had it right before. You guys ARE babysitters.

Adults are BORING. If you can't let that inner child run loose every now and then, what's life worth living? Anyone with kids should know what I mean. And of course, guys like me HAVE to keep the mods on their toes. If not, they'd become complacent and this whole board would go straight to hell!

 

[jclark]

That would be great. But most of the people on here aren't adults like you and me. The ones who act like kids are the ones who have been on here for at least a year and have 2,000+ posts.
You had it right before. You guys ARE babysitters.

I just have a lot to say.
I behave most of the time........

 

[hornadylnl]

If a man stood on a street corner preaching that Snoopy is the one true god and you'd go to hell if you didn't worship him, you'd say he was in need of mental help and not be the least bit offended. Yet those who get offended by those who preach about Jesus feel he is no more real than Snoopy. If Jesus is fictitious, then why the offense? My guess is that You don't feel convicted by Snoopy like you are Jesus. If you feel no conviction from the preachers message, I don't see any reason to get offended. If you do feel convicted, it's not the preacher convicting you, but God.

 

[Mike_Indy]

Calling BS on this one. Yes, I'm a Christian and yes we too say things when we are mad. Never claimed to be perfect. The problem is a handful of idiots that care more about making long threads and increasing personal posts counts than having a meaningful discussion.

The Christian faith is personal. That separates it from other religions. For that reason, if you throw "turds" at a Christian, or mock Him with Zombies, they will defend. And please, don't insult the 8000 plus members intelligence and say it was not intentional. No mind reading required there. Check the threads, see who was starting the junk. Admin could shut down about 10 accounts and the problem would dissolve.

Note to admin: you can send my check back, INGO is going down the tubes. Fast.

 

[Greg.B]

Admin could shut down about 10 accounts and the problem would dissolve.

You're absolutely correct....about 5 from each side of the fence would take care of it.

 

[paddling_man]

You're absolutely correct....about 5 from each side of the fence would take care of it.

I'm thinking more like three from each side and we would be good.



I grew up in the South. I won't go into all of the details of my religious beliefs - this is a GUN forum, after all - I will say that, with divorced parents, I attended both moderate Protestant congregations (Presbyterian & Methodist (non-Evangelical,) Lutheran) and spent much time with some friends at both Catholic and Episcopalian churches. With another side of my family and a couple of girlfriends, there was a lot of time spent at extremely fundamentalist evangelical Southern Baptist, Church of God and even a couple of Pentecostal.

As an adult, I fall strongly in the moderate Protestant congregation group.

Politics and religion make poor dinner companion conversation for groups with an isolated mutual interest. Politics gets an "out" here, for me, since it is tied so closely to firearms ownership rights on a gun forum.

Religion? Most of us are religious. (Guessing.) The "flavor," tends to be the difference. Whether Jewish, Catholic or one of the wildly divergent flavors of Protestantism - the "brands" of the devout on INGO span the scale. Not to dismiss the healthy percentage of atheists/agnostics who have great, positive input on this forum.

Redneckpastor - Blue River Guns: Two EXCELLENT examples of Christian men... ministers(!) - quite likely fundamentalist, evangelical Protestants - whom I enjoy their posts and their religious views, even if I may not share all of them. Very respectful gentlemen.

Techres and BOR: Two EXCELLENT examples of Jewish men - whom I enjoy their posts and their religious views, even if I may not share all of them. Very respectful gentlemen.

Very divergent views on the spiritual, between the two groups above - whom I appreciate their input.

Very personal point: In the South, I only did NOT appreciate two religious approaches... the folks coming to my door, invading my privacy who would NOT take no for an answer. (Think Jehovah's Witnesses. LDS-Mormons, were typically very respectful.) The other? The folks who approached you out-of-the-blue in, say WalMart, to "witness" to you and tell you that all of your personal religious views were wrong.

I said remove three from each side and the problem was fixed. I could amend that to say that you remove three - maybe just two - of the folks who (incidentally aren't ministers) fall within the group of mentioned in the preceding paragraph. You don't see the crap stirring start from Jewish folks. Not from moderate/non-evangelical Protestant congregation members. NOT from actual ministers of evangelical/Protestant churches.

Just a handful who like to name-call, label and insult people. Folks who seem to feel (or led by religious conviction) to "witness" to others through disrespect. For those who must witness due to religious drive - please take a clue from Blue River Guns or redneckpastor - they do it the right way. With respect. With Love. Without judgment.

For those (or the two or three that can't...) you potentially drove away the very people you are trying to draw to your faith.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

If members want to discuss religion, I really see no problem with it. I mean over time they saw no place for prayer, and the pledge of allegiance in school. I look at this way, if you do not care to share or read then do not take the time to do either. In my my honest opinion though religion is not God, but man made. You have so many Christian religions. Baptist, Southern Baptist, Catholic, Roman Catholic, etc. etc. etc. I have seen first hand one bashing another, for things that one may not see as right. One reason why I got pushed away from church. They all believe in the same savior, Jesus Christ. Why bicker over such minute things? Also a lot of Churches now care more about their pocket books, then the needs of the congregation. My Dad went to a country church growing up. People wore their farm clothes, it was not about how much money the church could make, people looked after and helped one another, and everyone pitched in when expanding the church. Not saying this can not be found today, but from my experience it's rare. To me Religion is money, and being a Christian to me means you except and believe in what Jesus Christ did. Shed his blood to wash us of our sins, and that we could have eternal life beside our savior. My , and if you do not like it then do not read it.

 

[Fletch]

{snip} My , and if you do not like it then do not read it.

That's pretty passive-aggressive... make me read through the whole thing, THEN give me the option of not reading it.

 

[Fenway]

Sorry you think INGO is going down the tubes. I'm sure since you feel that way we won't see you logged on or posting much around here any more. I will shred the check you sent. Thanks!

Note to admin: you can send my check back, INGO is going down the tubes. Fast.

 

[Benny]

Calling BS on this one. Yes, I'm a Christian and yes we too say things when we are mad. Never claimed to be perfect. The problem is a handful of idiots that care more about making long threads and increasing personal posts counts than having a meaningful discussion.

The Christian faith is personal. That separates it from other religions. For that reason, if you throw "turds" at a Christian, or mock Him with Zombies, they will defend. And please, don't insult the 8000 plus members intelligence and say it was not intentional. No mind reading required there. Check the threads, see who was starting the junk. Admin could shut down about 10 accounts and the problem would dissolve.

Note to admin: you can send my check back, INGO is going down the tubes. Fast.

There are over 8,700 members here and you say there are 10 causing problems...

.11% of the members here you don't like and "INGO is going down the tubes fast?"

Doesn't seem like it would take too terribly much time to put 10 people on your ignore list, but I have no idea how busy you are.