USPSA You make the call.

[rvb]

I think 5.2.2 is only for carrying the firearm in the holster, not during the make ready. If 5.2.2 applied during make ready, you would not be able to load the handgun since it also requires a empty magazine well.

First, I'm not trying to argue anything. my give a hoot meter is pegged on E. The result is the same (confused RO, but no penalty). so I haven't pulled the thread through the rule book. But 5.22 talks about carrying an unloaded gun in the holster. Once we've loaded it, 8.1 (and 10.5.11) come in to play. I don't see the words MR making a distinction. Splitting pointless hairs since there's no penalty.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

So I'm trying to understand the "why" of cocking the hammer before loading? Or am I not understanding what he did.

Does his actions have something to do with his draw and sight picture? Does the hammer being down get in the way of it? Or does he want to disengage the safety and pull the trigger along with his draw and site picturing?

If I had to guess, I'd guess the shooter wanted some more dryfire practice, incl making various parts of the gun click.

-rvb

 

[gregkl]

If I had to guess, I'd guess the shooter wanted some more dryfire practice, incl making various parts of the gun click.

-rvb

Thanks.

 

[Benp]

I think 5.2.2 is only for carrying the firearm in the holster, not during the make ready. If 5.2.2 applied during make ready, you would not be able to load the handgun since it also requires a empty magazine well.

This also makes it extremely difficult to shoot the firearm with an empty magazine well.

 

[Tanfodude]

There IS a specific rule: 5.2.2. Is there a MR exception I'm not seeing?

It's like 8.3.1.1... that one came up recently. There's a rule against it, but there is no penalty for breaking it that I could find...

As a shooter, I've found MY game gets interrupted less if I give the ROs fewer "WTF?" moments. Sure, by the book I can do certain things. I might get away with zipping through ULSC. I might cock the unloaded gun in the holster. Take 12 steps away from the start position during MR. Dryfire after inserting the mag. or any other number of, well, weird-but-"legal" things I've seen over the years. ... things that might not earn you penalty or DQ but could make the RO pause, maybe unload you, maybe call the CRO or RM, maybe try to chat with you about it, possibly rule incorrectly on penalties, etc. I prefer less drama when I'm on the course.



-rvb

Once the "make ready" command was given, 5.2.2 doesn't apply anymore hence my given example of dry firing (unloaded/empty magwell), drawing/reholstering (empty magwell), safety on/off (empty magwell) as part of dry fire, and sight picture (loaded or unloaded). Once loaded, you just can not put your finger on the trigger until after the beep and engaging/aiming at the target or 10.5.9 . Also you can't move 12 steps from make ready position per 8.7.1. And this discussion will help minimize drama once the confusion is cleared and IMO, it's ok to have confusions and questions as it leads to discussions.

 

[Tanfodude]

I could expound more but hate typing on phone.

 

[EyeCarry]

So I'm trying to understand the "why" of cocking the hammer before loading? Or am I not understanding what he did.

Does his actions have something to do with his draw and sight picture? Does the hammer being down get in the way of it? Or does he want to disengage the safety and pull the trigger along with his draw and site picturing?

Wondering as well.

 

[rvb]

Once the "make ready" command was given, 5.2.2 doesn't apply anymore hence my given example of dry firing (unloaded/empty magwell), drawing/reholstering, safety on/off as part of dry fire, and sight picture (loaded or unloaded).

see my thoughts above.

I'll add basic gun handling 101 common sense stuff.... I don't like routines that work on the premise of "it's ok, it's not loaded." I wouldn't have a hot gun in the holster w/ hammer back and no safety or cock it while loaded when in the holster, so I don't think it's a good idea just because "it's not loaded" and not against the rules.

I've never had an RO question a draw to a sight picture, rack it, safe it, holster, repeat. There was a good reason, imo, that something stood out to Coach as not right.

Once loaded, you just can not put your finger on the trigger until after the beep and engaging/aiming at the target or 10.5.9 .

There are guys who like to put a mag in (gun is then "loaded"), then do "full weight" dryfire. It's legal. 10.5.9 doesn't apply as you aren't in the act of loading/reloading/unloading. It's been beat to death through NROI, Enos forums, etc. I don't get it but rules allow it.

Also you can't move 12 steps from make ready position per 8.7.1.

Correct. And per 8.3.1.1. What's the penalty? I recently got called to a stage when an RO issued a DQ for this. I said it wasn't a safety issue. I couldn't find a Penalty for it. I wagged my finger at the shooter and said "don't do that again." What if he had done it again? Wagged my finger more vigorously?

And this discussion will help minimize drama once the confusion is cleared and IMO, it's ok to have confusions and questions as it leads to discussions.

painful, painful discussions over minutia that should never bubble up and need to be talked about ....

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

So your point is rulebook vs basic gun safety handling. I get it but the question was specific so I answered specifically if it was a violation or not. It's not. Then you came in saying rules were violated. But which rule, the USPSA 2014 rulebook or common sense gun safety handling?

Discussions are painful, yes, depends on your outlook. But if it leads to a conclusion, I don't see a problem with it.

So to end this confusion, should we just email NROI and screenshot the response so this painful conversation ends?

And not every rule violated leads to penalty (unless unsafe), just a more on correcting an action.

 

[rvb]

So to end this confusion, should we just email NROI and screenshot the response so this painful conversation ends?
.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[rvb]

now that I've been away from work a bit, and could actually think on this, the MR command is the most logical point for 5.2.2 to stop being applicable. So I rescind my original statement that the rule was violated. Otherwise you couldn't put a cocked/locked but unloaded gun in the holster during MR which is common...

I still don't think it's smart from a basic gun handling perspective. We shouldn't be lax just cause "it's not loaded."

Sorry. Carry on. I'll quit trying to read the rule book at work when I have to come back to my same post 6 times before I finish typing it......

 

[Tanfodude]

LOL. You're no fun.

 

[Snizz1911]

now that I've been away from work a bit, and could actually think on this, the MR command is the most logical point for 5.2.2 to stop being applicable. So I rescind my original statement that the rule was violated. Otherwise you couldn't put a cocked/locked but unloaded gun in the holster during MR which is common...

I still don't think it's smart from a basic gun handling perspective. We shouldn't be lax just cause "it's not loaded."

Sorry. Carry on. I'll quit trying to read the rule book at work when I have to come back to my same post 6 times before I finish typing it......

Ive been reading this waiting for you to come to your senses

I personally do not have a problem with it if I was RO'ing. MR command given, shooter is under my supervision and did nothing I deem unsafe. Absolute worst case scenerio and what should be impossible they draw and shoot the target they take the sight picture on.

 

[sporter]

Once loaded, you just can not put your finger on the trigger until after the beep and engaging/aiming at the targets.

Yes you can.

 

[rvb]

Ive been reading this waiting for you to come to your senses

I personally do not have a problem with it if I was RO'ing. MR command given, shooter is under my supervision and did nothing I deem unsafe. Absolute worst case scenerio and what should be impossible they draw and shoot the target they take the sight picture on.

Worst case, thumb hammer while in holster and it slips and gun goes off into leg.....

-rvb

 

[Snizz1911]

Worst case, thumb hammer while in holster and it slips and gun goes off into leg.....

-rvb

So the same worst case for every single draw stroke.

 

[rvb]

This started because competitor was cocking, then locking the gun while in the holster. Not a normal draw stroke.

 

[downrange72]

So I can be Dqd for decocking my DA/SA? I don't have a decocker. My finger is in the trigger guard after make ready and before the beep....

 

[downrange72]

You rules people suck the fun out of this

 

[Snizz1911]

This started because competitor was cocking, then locking the gun while in the holster. Not a normal draw stroke.

Right, they are actually immediately engaging the safety, instead of vise versa draw establish grip disengage safety and shoot as fast as possible. I just don't see the concern on this one at MR but realize there's going to be multiple opinions