Views From a Coffe Shop

[Phase2]

Back when I was a young buck, I was looking at basically 2 colleges, Purdue and Rose-Hulman. Purdue was about $9k a year, Rose was $25k a year. I told the Rose people that I could swing $10k to go there, or I could take my $9k to Purdue. Low and behold they found the money... $15k in financial assistance from the college itself. Plus a work study and some other scholarships. Ta da!!! I graduated with about $20k in debt and my starting salary was the, as calculated and researched, $50k. It was a 30 year term at 2.5% I think.

Good for you. Truly. That was a very good way to handle it.
However, young people have been setup to fail. It really shouldn't surprise you that a huge number are sleepwalking straight into the problems that the "best advice" has directed them towards.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Bull spit. My son is in 6th grade and just learned how to calculate interest on a loan. No one is being "sold" anything. They're hearing what they want to hear. It's all confirmation bias, "I want to go to college, and teacher says I should go to college, so I'm going to college."

People sell themselves on the idea that a degree fixes everything. I have a nephew that wants to get this Master's degree. I asked him why and he says, "because I like to learn" or some such garbage. I asked him how he's going to pay for it, and he's more than happy, delighted even, to just be fully and willfully ignorant of that. He does't like his job, so his solution is to go back to college, because that is where he had fun. He definitely doesn't want to hear anything about how money is going to get in his way of being a professional student.

Again, the people the lying to themselves. They hear what they want to hear. They want to hear that the world is easy and fun and you don't have to worry about how you will make ends meet. It all just "works out."

It's laziness pure and simple.

Sounds like AOC's infamous quote about how people afford rent and comparing that to the cost of her Green New Deal. "You just pay for it."

 

[BugI02]

Maybe it's just me, but I never go into anything without my eyes wide open.

When I selected my degree, I already knew what the job market was for that degree, the average starting salary, and what my debt payments would be. One of the reasons I chose mechanical engineering over Aeronautical (which is what I really wanted) is that the market for Aero is much smaller than the market for mechanical.

It boggles me that everyone doesn't use what seems to be a pretty common sense decision making process. Count the cost.

I also knew I wanted a desk job, because I had spent enough time laboring to know that, while rewarding and low investment cost, was REALLY hard. Laboring also had a ceiling unless I wanted to start my own company.

When I bought my house, in 2005, I could have doubled the amount I borrowed with some clever financial wrangling. Aren't I glad I didn't 3 years later. Why? Because I did my homework. What happens if the rate on my short term ARM doubles or triples in a down market? What if I need to sell my house? etc.

As P.T. Barnum may or may not have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Congratulations on your discernment. I made a similar switch (from Aero to ChemE) for similar reasons, but didn't wise up until my sophomore year. I did so at a time when opportunity in Aero was still quite broad, but I didn't like how brutally cyclic the industry was (although I loved the discipline itself). I didn't lose much time because of how the College of Engineering was structured

 

[Hawkeye]

Maybe it's just me, but I never go into anything without my eyes wide open.

When I selected my degree, I already knew what the job market was for that degree, the average starting salary, and what my debt payments would be. One of the reasons I chose mechanical engineering over Aeronautical (which is what I really wanted) is that the market for Aero is much smaller than the market for mechanical.

It boggles me that everyone doesn't use what seems to be a pretty common sense decision making process. Count the cost.

I also knew I wanted a desk job, because I had spent enough time laboring to know that, while rewarding and low investment cost, was REALLY hard. Laboring also had a ceiling unless I wanted to start my own company.

When I bought my house, in 2005, I could have doubled the amount I borrowed with some clever financial wrangling. Aren't I glad I didn't 3 years later. Why? Because I did my homework. What happens if the rate on my short term ARM doubles or triples in a down market? What if I need to sell my house? etc.

As P.T. Barnum may or may not have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

When I was a freshman in college, one of the upperclassmen in my dorm house told me he had originally enrolled in Aeronautical engineering. Then Proxmire got the US SST cancelled. This caused him to rethink his degree, and switched to Mechanical. This happened early enough in his college career to not cause him to lose any time. So he went away happy, I guess...

 

[HoughMade]

When I was a freshman in college, one of the upperclassmen in my dorm house told me he had originally enrolled in Aeronautical engineering. Then Proxmire got the US SST cancelled. This caused him to rethink his degree, and switched to Mechanical. This happened early enough in his college career to not cause him to lose any time. So he went away happy, I guess...

My cousin was educated as a mechanical engineer then, after a couple of years at Chrysler, he spent the rest of career at Boeing, retiring comfortably at age 61. Opportunity is where it is.

 

[ATOMonkey]

... young people have been setup to fail ...

False. Young people have the ability to think for themselves, they just choose not to. They are more than content to have mommy and daddy and the glowing box make all of their decisions for them, because it's easy. They are also enabled to make bad decisions by sentiment like this. We absolve them of all responsibility, and shift the blame squarely onto some nebulous boogy-man. We've also made it taboo to say that someone's dream for themselves is a stupid idea, especially when they have no plan.

Researching college and career isn't even that hard. It takes about an hour tops and access to the internet. It just requires more effort than playing fortnite and sexting.

 

[Phase2]

False. Young people have the ability to think for themselves, they just choose not to. They are more than content to have mommy and daddy and the glowing box make all of their decisions for them, because it's easy. They are also enabled to make bad decisions by sentiment like this. We absolve them of all responsibility, and shift the blame squarely onto some nebulous boogy-man. We've also made it taboo to say that someone's dream for themselves is a stupid idea, especially when they have no plan.

Researching college and career isn't even that hard. It takes about an hour tops and access to the internet. It just requires more effort than playing fortnite and sexting.

False. We have never been in a period when this is less true. Young people have been indoctrinated rather than educated by the current educational system for decades. Hence the rise of PC/SJW culture. They have been told all their lives by those in whom they should have reason to trust that college is the way to success, that they will make more money than if they don't go and that it is the passage to the middle/upper class life.

 

[ATOMonkey]

False. We have never been in a period when this is less true. Young people have been indoctrinated rather than educated by the current educational system for decades. Hence the rise of PC/SJW culture. They have been told all their lives by those in whom they should have reason to trust that college is the way to success, that they will make more money than if they don't go and that it is the passage to the middle/upper class life.

Unless someone is FORCING a decision on you, which isn't the case, then they still have free will and the ABILITY to make their own decisions. Whether they choose to exercise that ability or not is their choice. Again, it doesn't feel good to have your dream squashed because you can't afford it. It feels much better to just ignore reality and listen to all the confirmation bias instead. Laziness means you don't want to make your own decisions and you're more than happy to have someone else make them for you.

 

[Phase2]

You repeatedly mix up having an ability to do something with seeing a reason to do so. When a future returns method of analyzing the value of college or a specific college path is actively taught and the kids are led down that path, then I expect to see everyone do it (which does not match current reality). Until then, I'll believe that current students are being setup to fail (which does match current reality).

Please tell me which students have selected gender/race/etc studies that were also informed it would be a good idea to do a future returns analysis. I highly doubt the vast majority of those students are even aware that such an option is available and its value.

 

[doddg]

Refreshing article!
Glad I stumbled on to it.

 

[ATOMonkey]

You repeatedly mix up having an ability to do something with seeing a reason to do so. When a future returns method of analyzing the value of college or a specific college path is actively taught and the kids are led down that path, then I expect to see everyone do it (which does not match current reality). Until then, I'll believe that current students are being setup to fail (which does match current reality).

Please tell me which students have selected gender/race/etc studies that were also informed it would be a good idea to do a future returns analysis. I highly doubt the vast majority of those students are even aware that such an option is available and its value.

Giving bad guidance is not the same thing as setting up someone to fail. If I tell my 12 year old son that he MUST dig a 20 foot trench and MUST do it in one hour, I'm setting him up to fail. If I tell my son that if he wants to be happy he should dig a 20 foot trench in one hour, that's just ****ty advice. If he takes that advice that's just ****ty decision making.

Don't we expect 18 year olds to be able to make adult decisions?

Maybe the whole SJW and PC culture is a result of too much molly coddling and enabling of people to make bad decisions by telling them it wasn't their fault, that they were tricked.

 

[Karl-just-Karl]

Don't we expect 18 year olds to be able to make adult decisions?

Maybe the whole SJW and PC culture is a result of too much molly coddling and enabling of people to make bad decisions by telling them it wasn't their fault, that they were tricked.

No, it doesn't appear so. I debate whether or not our society is requiring 30 years olds to be able to make adult decisions.

And...

I think you have a fair grasp on the situation. Very few 20-30 somethings I know have made the decisions of personal accountability that you have.

 

[jamil]

False. Young people have the ability to think for themselves, they just choose not to. They are more than content to have mommy and daddy and the glowing box make all of their decisions for them, because it's easy. They are also enabled to make bad decisions by sentiment like this. We absolve them of all responsibility, and shift the blame squarely onto some nebulous boogy-man. We've also made it taboo to say that someone's dream for themselves is a stupid idea, especially when they have no plan.

Researching college and career isn't even that hard. It takes about an hour tops and access to the internet. It just requires more effort than playing fortnite and sexting.

Nope. Young people don’t think for themselves. Adults mostly don’t think for themselves. If people thought for themselves advertising wouldn’t be as seductive. That makes the glowy box extremely influential.

 

[doddg]

It stirs up my ire about how H.S. students get "college" thrust on them the only ticket to ride.
Never has been (2 of 3 drop out used to be the old stat).
As a teacher I would always talk of other options & the success of those I knew making more $$ than me as a teacher.
There was the house-flipper back in the 80s/90s who worked half the year and made twice, or even 3 times what I did.
I worked for him in the summers.
Before I got my teaching job here in IN (1988) I was a college recruiter for ITT Technical Institute, and learned alot.
I remember a guy who went through a year electronics program and started off at $30k/yr. & I was making only $22k when I got my teaching job.
Grads from Technical/Vocational programs earn more that Liberal Arts degreed in their lifetimes: a statistic that most don't know.
I have seen kids waste thousands to attend IUPUI for a semester, to learn that it wasn't for them, & I could have told them to go directly to a job-training program.

I would always tell them how a plumber wanted to put in a faucet in my sink for $200 labor (1 hour job max) or the guy that wanted to put in a shut off valve on the water main for $350 (hour job) or the guy that wanted $2000 dollars to put in counter tops in my house recently & that was the "good" bid.
Don't get me started on electricians, or installing a simple furnace in your basement & running the ductwork through the floor joists (I did that with Dad's help, an electrician, when bought 1st old house in late 70s).
I've poured alot of concrete in my younger days and can't believe how simple that is, but expensive to pay to get it done.
Point: no liberal arts training, real work, real hands-on training & apprenticeships.
At one point I was being told by my friends that I should have started up a remodeling business in my early 30s after I moved here.
I was smart enough not to do it, but it looked good at the time b/c teaching didn't pay a living wage at the time: I survived by working summers remodeling or helping build new houses doing low skilled work.

 

[HoughMade]

No, it doesn't appear so. I debate whether or not our society is requiring 30 years olds to be able to make adult decisions.

And...

I think you have a fair grasp on the situation. Very few 20-30 somethings I know have made the decisions of personal accountability that you have.

I can't speak to the numbers as all of my "evidence" is anecdotal, but I know several people under 30 who are independent adults not that different from what I was under 30. I was fully financially independent from my parents when I left college at age 21 and got married that same year. My son graduated from college in 3 years, at 21, and is fully financially independent. He live in another state, has a good job and pays all his own bills. Most of his friends are likewise. Most of my friends' kids, likewise. Some are married, some single, etc.

Maybe it's where I live and who I am around, but this is not unusual in my world. I hear and see the prolonged adolescents around town, so I know they are out there (overheard a slovenly, late 20s guy who was there with his wife and kids, in the dentist's office complaining that his Dad's dental insurance, which he was on, wasn't good enough) but I don't know if they are a sad, small minority or becoming the norm. I like to optimistic and believe we here so much about them, because they are the loud complainers.

 

[Leadeye]

Both of my sons are independent contributing members of society, if they complain about anything at all it's how much they have to pay in taxes. Being semi retired, we plan the holidays around their work schedule, as my youngest told me once, when opportunity calls, you go, or it's unlikely to call again.

 

[Karl-just-Karl]

When I got out of highschool I went straight to working a third shift job. I stayed there three years until I had enough money saved up for tech school. I learned a lot from the middle-age guys that put in a lot of long hours for what didn't seem like very much money.

I paid for my own cars, my own insurance and I never took out a single loan for school. There are still hard working kids out there and I am always happy to meet another one. Sometimes they just seem far and few between.

There are just some really questionable individuals I have met in the last several years. Young folks fresh out of college that have not developed nearly enough coping mechanisms to deal with the harshness of the real world of angry, frustrated, exhausted grown-ups.

I have a couple of nieces and nephews that I do not know how they have managed. Some nearly didn't. I'm certain that they are more than a little like us when we were their age in many ways.

Recently there was an employee where I work that was 37. He called it his first big-boy job.

He left after a year or so. He said he was going to go get a job selling pot in Michigan.

I'm certain the generational perspective has a lot to do with it. I'm also certain the ability for the few loud-mouths that want all the attention now have a platform that leads right into our living-rooms and daily lives also has something to do with it.

I knew I was getting old the first time I yelled at some of the neighborhood kids to, "get off my lawn".

 

[ATOMonkey]

When I got out of highschool I went straight to working a third shift job. I stayed there three years until I had enough money saved up for tech school. I learned a lot from the middle-age guys that put in a lot of long hours for what didn't seem like very much money.

The best life teaching lessons I ever got was working with older people when I was in high school and college. I learned how important it was to ALWAYS make the best decision I could. Most of their stories started out, "when I was young I did something dumb and it has followed me the rest of my life." The people who recover from those bad decisions early on were much fewer than the ones who didn't.