Vortex Diamondback tactical FFP / opinions?

[seedubs1]

Alan, what’s your opinion on the new Nikon blacks? Word is, they’re pretty close to similar with the PST gen 1. Nikon has stated no plastic in the guts, and PI made. My opinion is that the reticle sucks, but the rest of the specs look really nice. How are they comparing to the Vortex lineup?

Steeet price looks like about $150 more than the Diamondback FFP.

 

[Gabriel]

Yes, the reticle on 4x will get lost a bit in low light. That is just a product of trying to make a low cost FFP (IE, functions perfectly without illumination).

I have the 4-16 and agree that the reticle gets difficult to see at 4x. My 5-25 is the same at 5x, but I could turn on the illumination if I needed to. My range is in a heavily wooded area, so it’s usually fairly dark.

The reticle is is the main reason I went with the Diamondback over the Strike Eagle. I'm
pretty sold on the Christmas tree style reticle after using it on the PST.

As far as the glass, I don’t find it to be bad at all. It’s not as nice as the PST or my MK 4s, but it’s quite usable ( I have a pair of diamondback binos that I like, so I was pretty sure the glass in the 4-16 would be at least equal).

The turrets aren’t great. I haven’t dialed it a lot or had time to do a box test ( thanks to the reticle and being too busy to shoot a lot outside of work this last month or so ). They don’t have a great solid feel, but I wouldn’t expect that in a $350 optic.

Whoever said they would put the diamondback up there with $1300 optics like the MK4 must have been on crack, but it’s a good optic at its price point. I’m not disappointed in the purchase at all.

 

[42769vette]

Alan, what’s your opinion on the new Nikon blacks? Word is, they’re pretty close to similar with the PST gen 1. Nikon has stated no plastic in the guts, and PI made. My opinion is that the reticle sucks, but the rest of the specs look really nice. How are they comparing to the Vortex lineup?

Steeet price looks like about $150 more than the Diamondback FFP.

I haven't followed Nikon in years, so I honestly don't have an opinion.

 

[seedubs1]

Normally, I'd say the same thing. These new Black models seem like Nikon finally got the message on what customers want. I'll be interested to see how they do on the range. I'd expect a lot of them to start showing up on the shooting lines soon.

I haven't followed Nikon in years, so I honestly don't have an opinion.

 

[42769vette]

I'm in a deer blind with internet limited to quick phone searches so forgive me if there is further info elsewhere. I pulled this off the Nikon site to see if they finally changed their warranty.

Nikon Repair Service restores your product to factory standards with genuine Nikon parts. Our self-service repair site makes it easy to manage the entire process—from getting a cost estimate and shipping your product to us until it's safely back in your hands.

Schedule a Repair


If their warranty work still requires a cost estimate, I doubt you see many on firing lines. You might see them at your local range, but serious shooters won't deal with that.

 

[seedubs1]

My understanding is that they're changing to be more like the Vortex warranty (that may just be the Black and higher end scopes from them). They have listed a "no fault lifetime" warranty on their site. That's what the reps on the major forums have been saying as well. Bushnell Elite and Sig have gone that way too. Customers are demanding it, and companies are responding. I'm in the same camp.....I won't buy a scope without a lifetime no questions asked warranty from a company I trust to be around long enough to honor it.

I doubt anyone seriously competitive will be using these as well. They're $5-600 scopes. Club level type shooters, I think, will be using them. If you get the chance, check the Black series out. I'll be interested to hear how you think it stacks up to the old PST gen 1. Who knows, they may flop and be garbage.....but it seems like Nikon is finally turning a corner and responding to the market.

Good luck with the hunt Alan!

 

[Hohn]

Really respect your opinion and all you do for the forum Alan, and understand that was only a quote from a customer and not your statement.

But I respectfully disagree with comparing the Diamondback series (even the FFP version) to the SWFA SS line. The reviewer you quoted was comparing Japanese LOW glass and in some of those models HD glass to a more budget friendly PI build with the Diamondback. I have some of the Diamondback scopes, and these will no doubt be awesome for what you pay. But they are not on par with any LOW scopes.

I think that customer is still in the honeymoon phase with his Diamondback. Hope he or she continues to enjoy it. But right now, it’s being put on a pedestal in that persons mind. They don’t compete with $1300 scopes or anything coming out of LOW.

All that said.....OP, you aren’t going to find a more feature packed scope for $400. You can have a more robust scope or one with better glass, but you won’t get anything with this many features that works for that price. Bump your budget $300 more, and you get into the next level.

Also.....buy from Alan. He’s a good dude, has reasonable prices, and stands behind what he sells.

This is where I'm at, too. The SWFAs can be tremendous values if your definition of "value" means you can live without a lot of the features that are increasingly making their way down to lower end scopes and instead you're focused more on build quality and turret repeatability and such. I'm in that camp, so I generally look to SWFA as I take a pretty simplistic view of the scope as an aiming and ranging device, not an optical viewing instrument (not a camera!).

I don't think all the SWFAs are LOW scopes, but I'm pretty sure all the HDs are.



I'm not convinced that a lot of the people buying FFP really do benefit from FFP. I think there's an emerging market consensus that FFP is self-evidently superior and you always want it. This is causing people to pursue FFP when it's not really helpful to them.

I suspect Vortex is going to see a bunch of these FFP DBs, they look like pretty compelling options in that price range. The EBR reticles are excellent. Especially the Christmas Tree versions.


OP--

It's really difficult to find a scope that isn't severely compromised for dual purpose for deer hunting and punching paper to 600 and beyond. They are diametric opposites in some ways. The hunting optic is almost always 12x or less because 1) not many of us can hold >12x steady offhand or sticks and 2) we're ethical hunters and not shooting so far as to need>12x or so. You'll also want a thicker reticle so you can see it better against tree branches and such, and the speed is useful with a moving target. And that moving target makes a wider FOV very useful (and hence, lower mag).

At the bench and 600y, it's a totally different story. You can have 20x and you'll wish you had 50x if you are shooting for groups. The target isn't moving, FOV isn't important really at all. Heck, so folks do the pinhole-in-scopecap-trick to intentionally reduce it to a tiny FOV.


If your idea of target and range fun doesn't include trying to shoot measured, tiny groups, then you you can ignore all super high mag BS and just enjoy and nice dual purpose rig, and I think the Vortex 4-16 FFP DB would be a GREAT choice for that kind of gun. 4x for hunting, 16x for range fun.


Looking forward to your follow up post.

Hohn in Columbus

 

[seedubs1]

I don't think all the SWFAs are LOW scopes, but I'm pretty sure all the HDs are.

Last I heard, the lower end fixed SWFA scopes were made by Kenko in Japan. The higher end "HD" scopes are LOW. Both are excellent from a mechanical standpoint. The lower end ones from Kenko have serviceable glass. The HD versions from LOW have very nice glass.

I'm not convinced that a lot of the people buying FFP really do benefit from FFP. I think there's an emerging market consensus that FFP is self-evidently superior and you always want it. This is causing people to pursue FFP when it's not really helpful to them.

LPV's (1-Whatever x scopes), I want in SFP. I'm either using it like a red dot on 1x, or flipping it to full power when I may be using the reticle. So the reticle only being useful at the highest mag is fine. In addition, illumination on the SFP is easier to get brighter for the manufacturer. Putting daylight bright reticles in FFP is expensive, and IMHO, unnecessary on a LPV.

For hunting, I don't mind a plex reticle. If it's a plex reticle, it's SFP. Simple. No need for FFP in that case since you aren't using the reticle for ranging or dope.

If it's not a LPV, and I have a reticle I want to use for ranging or dope, I want FFP. That way the reticle works at any mag.

JMHO

I suspect Vortex is going to see a bunch of these FFP DBs, they look like pretty compelling options in that price range. The EBR reticles are excellent. Especially the Christmas Tree versions.

Definitely. They're going to sell truck loads of these things. The EBR xmas tree reticles are AWESOME. These having great reticles and being FFP.....it's a home run at this price.

 

[SEMI-AK]

This is where I'm at, too. The SWFAs can be tremendous values if your definition of "value" means you can live without a lot of the features that are increasingly making their way down to lower end scopes and instead you're focused more on build quality and turret repeatability and such. I'm in that camp, so I generally look to SWFA as I take a pretty simplistic view of the scope as an aiming and ranging device, not an optical viewing instrument (not a camera!).

I don't think all the SWFAs are LOW scopes, but I'm pretty sure all the HDs are.



I'm not convinced that a lot of the people buying FFP really do benefit from FFP. I think there's an emerging market consensus that FFP is self-evidently superior and you always want it. This is causing people to pursue FFP when it's not really helpful to them.

I suspect Vortex is going to see a bunch of these FFP DBs, they look like pretty compelling options in that price range. The EBR reticles are excellent. Especially the Christmas Tree versions.


OP--

It's really difficult to find a scope that isn't severely compromised for dual purpose for deer hunting and punching paper to 600 and beyond. They are diametric opposites in some ways. The hunting optic is almost always 12x or less because 1) not many of us can hold >12x steady offhand or sticks and 2) we're ethical hunters and not shooting so far as to need>12x or so. You'll also want a thicker reticle so you can see it better against tree branches and such, and the speed is useful with a moving target. And that moving target makes a wider FOV very useful (and hence, lower mag).

At the bench and 600y, it's a totally different story. You can have 20x and you'll wish you had 50x if you are shooting for groups. The target isn't moving, FOV isn't important really at all. Heck, so folks do the pinhole-in-scopecap-trick to intentionally reduce it to a tiny FOV.


If your idea of target and range fun doesn't include trying to shoot measured, tiny groups, then you you can ignore all super high mag BS and just enjoy and nice dual purpose rig, and I think the Vortex 4-16 FFP DB would be a GREAT choice for that kind of gun. 4x for hunting, 16x for range fun.


Looking forward to your follow up post.

Hohn in Columbus

Thanks—-I ordered the 4-16 from Alan and think it will fit my needs for the rifle and cartridge well. It will be a beanfield occasional use rifle under the right circumstances and a medium range steel and paper Plinker.
My AAC SD is what I trust for now until I vet the new scope and new rifle.

 

[Traav]

The Blacks have been getting great reviews. Everyone really likes them.

 

[Traav]

Best scope available in that price range.