walking and shooting

[the1kidd03]

Really....

I know several Combat Vets who must have missed that ****ing class...
You Shoot when you need to, if you can.
You move the way you need to, if you can.
You combine the 2 as needed, if you can.

Oorah.....or well...i guess hooah for you..lol did I spell that right?!?!

 

[cedartop]

This is highly objective/relative to any number of given situations which can call for your need to shoot and move backwards....I could think of quite a few off the top of my head without even trying....the point is that you should train for it even if it is highly unlikely to need it.......

rather know how to do it and not use it, then need to use it and not know how to.............

if your advancing forward passing an object of concealment/cover, and all of a sudden notice an additional threat about to present itself you may wish to fall back to that cover position........then what if they are firing and you need to provide "suppressive fire" to keep their head down so you can take cover a little more safely??

the point is that we can play the what if game ALL DAY.....but telling someone that a technique/tactic is "wrong" or "not needed" is IMO an irresponsible method of teaching

YOUR points are well taken. My first sentence could have been worded better. Of course we train to move to the rear. Moving straight back slowly while walking is just not our preferred method of doing so with a deadly threat in your face.

 

[the1kidd03]

While in the Army, none. Though I was in the Infantry, during the time I was in, I saw no combat. While on the PD I was lucky enough to not have to shoot anyone, though some came very close. Of course my grandfather killed a lot of Japs in WWII, but would have made a lousy instructor, so not sure I get your point. Are only those who have actually killed allowed to train in your world? I have taught guys with multiple combat tours in my classes and all manged to learn something. Fortunately I am open minded enough that I learned stuff from them as well.

from a military POV.....those who teach, have done.....if not, not qualified to teach from theory and book reading....but, that's a military mentality mostly I think....but personally, I too do not take part in classes (especially pay for them) which are taught by those without actual experience in what they teach....it's just a credibility thing IMO.....it's like teaching art or business ethics where it's highly relative to an indivuals opinion rather than factually supported by experience

 

[jeremy]

While in the Army, none. Though I was in the Infantry, during the time I was in, I saw no combat. While on the PD I was lucky enough to not have to shoot anyone, though some came very close. Of course my grandfather killed a lot of Japs in WWII, but would have made a lousy instructor,

Congrats to you and yours for the sacrifice...

This is where I split this though...

so not sure I get your point. Are only those who have actually killed allowed to train in your world? I have taught guys with multiple combat tours in my classes and all manged to learn something. Fortunately I am open minded enough that I learned stuff from them as well.

Not at all...
Anyone can be an instructor regardless of their background. I have had several Instructors who never had been any type of Service...

But YOU are the one whom started talking Gunfights. I thought I would inquire on what you experience on that subject was. One of my pet peeves, when one starts talking about what does and does not work in a gunfight but has never been in one...

 

[cedartop]

from a military POV.....those who teach, have done.....if not, not qualified to teach from theory and book reading....but, that's a military mentality mostly I think....but personally, I too do not take part in classes (especially pay for them) which are taught by those without actual experience in what they teach....it's just a credibility thing IMO.....it's like teaching art or business ethics where it's highly relative to an indivuals opinion rather than factually supported by experience

Hmm, well that must be my problem, as far as I know, none of my Drill Seargents had any combat experience, neither did most of my Officers and NCO's at Ft. Ord.

 

[cedartop]

Congrats to you and yours for the sacrifice...

This is where I split this though...

Not at all...
Anyone can be an instructor regardless of their background. I have had several Instructors who never had been any type of Service...

But YOU are the one whom started talking Gunfights. I thought I would inquire on what you experience on that subject was. One of my pet peeves, when one starts talking about what does and does not work in a gunfight but has never been in one...

Well FWIW, I have been in a knife fight before, but I don't teach that. Well technically I don't know if you call it a knife fight, he had the knife, of course, because the officers weren't armed in the prison.

 

[jeremy]

Well FWIW, I have been in a knife fight before, but I don't teach that. Well technically I don't know if you call it a knife fight, he had the knife, of course, because the officers weren't armed in the prison.

LOL!

When I want a Class on Knife Fighting, I'll come see you...
But when I want a Class on Gunfighting or what does or does not work in a Combat Zone, I'll go somewhere else. Do to the fact that if it does not work, in a CZ is not the time to figure out that I practiced the wrong crap...

 

[the1kidd03]

Hmm, well that must be my problem, as far as I know, none of my Drill Seargents had any combat experience, neither did most of my Officers and NCO's at Ft. Ord.

not all of my Drill Instructors did either...as that is not a requirement for teaching military BASICS.....however, all of the combat instructors at School of Infantry, Advanced Infantry Training, etc,etc were combat vets....the higher level of training they were instructing, generally the higher amount of time they spent in the suck and more experience they had

 

[the1kidd03]

knife fighting rule #1=you're gonna get CUT.....get over that fact, it's bound to happen but learn what you can to keep those cuts from being too bad, and utilizing the blade against your opponent

 

[rhino]

First of all, avoid moving backwards and shooting. This may be well and good for gun games but in the real world, not so mch. Have you ever done any type of Force on Force training? What is the point of slowly moving back? You can not move back fast enough to outrun the bullet or even the attacker for that matter.

This a really important point. This is one reason why the "Thunder Ranch Shuffle" (moving one foot and dragging the other) for retreating has very limited utility.

 

[sloughfoot]

I can explode off the "X" with the best of them. I can walk and shoot with the best of them. Forward and backwards. I can do the Thunder ranch shuffle with the best of them. Clint and I learned it long before he moved to Texas.

I can use or transition to any of them as the conditions require.

Shouldn't we all strive to be well rounded in our skills?

 

[David Rose]

knife fighting rule #1=you're gonna get CUT.....get over that fact, it's bound to happen but learn what you can to keep those cuts from being too bad, and utilizing the blade against your opponent

Are you relaying this information from "books and theory" or have you actually been in a knife fight in combat?

 

[the1kidd03]

bit of both.....another Sgt. I was with got an "enemy marksmanship badge"(Purple Heart) for his stab wounds when some hodgies snuck in behind his position........but as previously stated, all of our training comes from Marines with experience in what they instruct...nothing less

plus me and a fellow spec-ops Marine regularly practice/train in active scenarios with each other to maintain combat readiness

 

[bwframe]

Very educational thread. So far, I like the advice from the competition guys the most. The emphasis on determining whether you can or should shoot on the move seems to be golden.

Anyone can shoot on the move. Putting rounds on target while doing so, a different story.

 

[chandler10r1]

I was gonna give you some pointers, but I'm pretty sure they ^^ covered it best. Keep practicing and try to have an accomplished shooter watch your form and give you pointers.

 

[cedartop]

bit of both.....another Sgt. I was with got an "enemy marksmanship badge"(Purple Heart) for his stab wounds when some hodgies snuck in behind his position........but as previously stated, all of our training comes from Marines with experience in what they instruct...nothing less

plus me and a fellow spec-ops Marine regularly practice/train in active scenarios with each other to maintain combat readiness

kidd I have nothing but respect for our military, especially the combat troops. What they have though is only part of the puzzle, what you have in a war zone can vary quite a bit from a reactive one on one confrontation on the streets of Indy. (I know, some would say parts of Indy are a war zone) Nobody has a corner on everything you need to know, which is why we continue to learn.

 

[Coach]

Some things from various posts during the overnight. I never advocated moving slowly in any direction. If the sights are moving when a foot is hitting the ground you are doing it wrong practice it more. Rolling the feet includes when putting them down. Backing up when shooting has applications of getting away from a threat like a knife attack while putting six in the bad guys chest.

Competition is not real world or applicable to shooting on the move. Knew this was going to show up. Is shooting fast and accurately real world? Is being able to shoot on the move in any direction. Is being fast on the draw and reloading? Where is the real world that calls for doing things differently?

 

[Ragenarok007]

Adapt and overcome.

 

[jeremy]

Competition is not real world or applicable to shooting on the move. Knew this was going to show up. Is shooting fast and accurately real world? Is being able to shoot on the move in any direction. Is being fast on the draw and reloading? Where is the real world that calls for doing things differently?

Actually a lot can be learned from Competitions that is Applicable...
As well as a fair amount can be learned from Combat...

Yes, I think that these skills are needed by everyone to varying degrees of proficiency and use. I however do not think Someone who has not been to the Suck can proficiently instruct someone on Combat Skills.

There are huge differences between the Competition Ranges, the Mean Streets of Indianapolis, and the Suck. Each requires a different application of skills that are being applied. The largest difference in the 3 is what you win...
The Guy on the Competition Range is just not going to win a prize, the Guy in Indy might have to have his Next of Kin notified. While they Guy in the Combat Zone could very well have doomed his squad to his same fate...

 

[Jay]

I however do not think Someone who has not been to the Suck can proficiently instruct someone on Combat Skills.

The largest difference in the 3 is what you win...
The Guy on the Competition Range is just not going to win a prize, the Guy in Indy might have to have his Next of Kin notified. While they Guy in the Combat Zone could very well have doomed his squad to his same fate...

repped