Water Softner

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

I have little experience, so take it with a grain of salt.
We have a Morton unit from Wallymart, and it works.
That said, if I had it to do again I'd invest in a Water Boss. Cycles based on usage, and from several anecdotal accounts, fairly bulletproof.

 

[Hardscrable]

I bought a Kinetico back in 95. Pretty pricey, but it has dual resin tanks, operates off a water impeller meter, so no electricity.

But it still works after almost twenty years.

I vote Kinetico. I currently have them in 3 houses...1 installed in early '80s. No electricity & regenerate on water used not by timer. Uses much less salt. Twin tanks so never run out of soft water. Have had excellent results with varying water problems...iron, calcium, etc. Don't put over 3 bags of salt in at a time...prevents a large "chunk" of salt from forming. Put a good filter on incoming water line to keep sand, etc out of head and they are pretty much trouble free.

 

[melensdad]

I'm still curious how any of these really expensive water softeners are worth the money.

My KENMORE from Sears uses very little salt, its a 'demand' regeneration system like the really expensive models. Its only a single tank, but that has not been an issue in my household. Now it does use electricity for keeping track of the time, the water flow, the salt levels, etc, but that is only 12-volt. So it won't work in a power failure, but in a power failure I lose my well pump too, so its not a problem that the softener won't soften water during a power failure.

So can someone please explain why I should have spent 3 to 4 times the cost of my Kenmore to buy one of the Kinetico or similar units?

Don't just call the Kenmore or Morton systems junk, please explain how the hyper expensive units are worth the cost.

Again, mine is a 'demand' regeneration model, not set on a simple timer. Mine cost about $500. I use about a bag of salt a week and have very hard water and high iron content too.

 

[PeaShooter]

Get one that has a demand recharge feature, not just a timer. These things really aren't rocket science. If you are a bit technical and can do some research on the internet, you can build your own for a fraction of the cost of Culligan, Kinetico or others. I built a 1.5 cu ft unit (most residential are 1 cu ft) with a top of the line control head for less than $600 a few years ago. Really, the head is where you need to spend your money, the other items, tank, brine tank, resin are all commodity items. There are tutorials online that will tell you how to program the head. The only real variable is your water quality. I took mine and had it tested for free at one of the water treatment places to find out how many grains of hardness and iron were present. Then you use that information to program the head. If you go this route, I would suggest a good Fleck or Autotrol head. Any of the water quality companies can work on a Fleck or Autotrol, if needed.

Edit, did some research and Clak is another up an comer head brand.

 

[comanche]

I'm with MELENSDAD, I have installed a few Kenmore softeners. They last and are way cheaper to purchase than the big name brands with all the features.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Salt consumption, lets take a look at this.
Please list the following:

What unit you have
How much salt you use
Number of users
Well or city water

 

[Hardscrable]

I'm still curious how any of these really expensive water softeners are worth the money.

My KENMORE from Sears uses very little salt, its a 'demand' regeneration system like the really expensive models. Its only a single tank, but that has not been an issue in my household. Now it does use electricity for keeping track of the time, the water flow, the salt levels, etc, but that is only 12-volt. So it won't work in a power failure, but in a power failure I lose my well pump too, so its not a problem that the softener won't soften water during a power failure.

So can someone please explain why I should have spent 3 to 4 times the cost of my Kenmore to buy one of the Kinetico or similar units?

Don't just call the Kenmore or Morton systems junk, please explain how the hyper expensive units are worth the cost.

Again, mine is a 'demand' regeneration model, not set on a simple timer. Mine cost about $500. I use about a bag of salt a week and have very hard water and high iron content too.

Mine personal residence uses just over 1 bag per month on average ( includes laundry, washing vehicles, etc. - everything except watering outdoor potted plants ) - a little more if guests staying few days. So do the math of salt savings over the years ( as I said previously, one of mine is 30 years old with zero repairs in that time). Granted, your situation may not be the same as mine...just stating what my experience has been. The first one was purchased after asking for recommendation from a friend in home construction. All 3 of mine replaced other brands/types that were much more expensive to operate. Water quality is also excellent so I will stick with what has worked well for me. Tenants have also commented to me regarding less salt usage, etc. compared to their previous experience.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'm still curious how any of these really expensive water softeners are worth the money.

My KENMORE from Sears uses very little salt, its a 'demand' regeneration system like the really expensive models. Its only a single tank, but that has not been an issue in my household. Now it does use electricity for keeping track of the time, the water flow, the salt levels, etc, but that is only 12-volt. So it won't work in a power failure, but in a power failure I lose my well pump too, so its not a problem that the softener won't soften water during a power failure.

So can someone please explain why I should have spent 3 to 4 times the cost of my Kenmore to buy one of the Kinetico or similar units?

Don't just call the Kenmore or Morton systems junk, please explain how the hyper expensive units are worth the cost.

Again, mine is a 'demand' regeneration model, not set on a simple timer. Mine cost about $500. I use about a bag of salt a week and have very hard water and high iron content too.

I think I spent about $1500 on my Kinetico, and to be honest, I don't know if I'd buy another Kinetico, since that company makes it so difficult to get parts or repair/service instructions. I'm lucky that the people that run the Muncie location (Oxley's) are very nice and good to work with. I've bought parts from them and gotten good advice toward service. But, I've heard that many Kinetico dealers will not sell parts, or if they do, they are very expensive.

What I will say is that I've been more than satisfied with my unit, with around 20 years of trouble-free service, and I even took one almost 30 year-old Kinetico that I removed from my mom's house (replaced with a Morton unit from Mennards that is already acting up) and after disassembling, cleaning, and replacing a couple of things, it's been back in business and running well.

 

[Stschil]

I'm still curious how any of these really expensive water softeners are worth the money.

My KENMORE from Sears uses very little salt, its a 'demand' regeneration system like the really expensive models. Its only a single tank, but that has not been an issue in my household. Now it does use electricity for keeping track of the time, the water flow, the salt levels, etc, but that is only 12-volt. So it won't work in a power failure, but in a power failure I lose my well pump too, so its not a problem that the softener won't soften water during a power failure.

So can someone please explain why I should have spent 3 to 4 times the cost of my Kenmore to buy one of the Kinetico or similar units?

Don't just call the Kenmore or Morton systems junk, please explain how the hyper expensive units are worth the cost.

Again, mine is a 'demand' regeneration model, not set on a simple timer. Mine cost about $500. I use about a bag of salt a week and have very hard water and high iron content too.

Being a former Culligan Svc Manager, I can shed a little light. Culligan, Aquapure, Kinetico, etc are brand names that many trust so they get to charge a premium for their name. I've worked on just about every manufacturer brand of softener there is, except Kinetico (They are way too complicated for what they do. The 'Non-electric' control head really only amounts to about a $5 or $6 dollar savings in electricity over a years time anyway) Most control valves are made by only a few manufacturers, (or have been copied from them) Fleck and Autotrol being the most popular because they are the least complicated to both operate and repair and have pretty much proven themselves over time. I personally prefer the Fleck valves (Culligan uses many collaborated Fleck designs) over the Autotrol, mainly because the moving parts have more wear life in them and they require less maint.
The larger companies do offer something that the big box stores cannot and that is experience and knowledge when it comes to dealing with problem water situations.(Sulfur, iron bacteria, coloidal iron, high chlorine content, Sulfide Reducing Bacteria, Arsenic, etc) Iron and Hardness are not problems for most units as long as the mineral bed is sized correctly and it is getting the right salt dosage based on the actual water quality and water usage of the household. A cheaper Menards type unit may last for decades if set correctly, however if there are other issues with the water, a lot of the times, the internals of these knock off valves cannot stand up.
I will say this, anyone who is on a City water system, (which most usually only treat for iron content and can range up to 15 gpg of hardness) need not spend a ton of money on a big name unit.

I know, clear as mud now, right?

Added: I am not a fan of the All In One units with the intergrated brine tank. I've spent far too many hours cleaning them out because the salt had turned to mush and became hard packed inside. This design tends to encourge this because the mineral tanks are uninsulated, lowering the tempurature of the water for brining, which consequently lowers it's ability to dissolve the salt.

 

[edporch]

I'm not recommending any particular brand, just what I would avoid if it was me.

I WOULD get one that has the traditional mechanical mechanism that has a simply slow turning electric motor that runs it through it's cycles.

I WOULD NOT get one of the "smart" ones.
They tend to have electronic circuit boards that are much less resistant to lighting strikes or voltage transients than the simple mechanical ones.

Keep it simple.

 

[heavyhitter1k]

https://post.craigslist.org/manage/4523756738

Got a used one from my house! Take a look and let me know if anyone looking has any interest. I know they are $$$ new.

 

[melensdad]

I think I spent about $1500 on my Kinetico, and to be honest, I don't know if I'd buy another Kinetico, since that company makes it so difficult to get parts or repair/service instructions. ...

Very interesting because you spent 3x as much on a Kinetico than I spent on a Sears KENMORE and you need to buy replacement parts but mine never fails. Now I really don't understand the point of why you spent 3x what I spent.

Being a former Culligan Svc Manager, I can shed a little light. Culligan, Aquapure, Kinetico, etc are brand names that many trust so they get to charge a premium for their name. I've worked on just about every manufacturer brand of softener there is, except Kinetico (They are way too complicated for what they do. The 'Non-electric' control head really only amounts to about a $5 or $6 dollar savings in electricity over a years time anyway) Most control valves are made by only a few manufacturers, (or have been copied from them) Fleck and Autotrol being the most popular because they are the least complicated to both operate and repair and have pretty much proven themselves over time. I personally prefer the Fleck valves (Culligan uses many collaborated Fleck designs) over the Autotrol, mainly because the moving parts have more wear life in them and they require less maint.

So over a 20 year lifespan (my house is now approaching 20 years old) I could have saved up to $6 per year, or a total of $120. But it costs between $1500 and $2000 to buy a super premium brand versus $500-$600 for a KENMORE from Sears. So its still doesn't make sense.

The larger companies do offer something that the big box stores cannot and that is experience and knowledge when it comes to dealing with problem water situations.(Sulfur, iron bacteria, coloidal iron, high chlorine content, Sulfide Reducing Bacteria, Arsenic, etc) Iron and Hardness are not problems for most units as long as the mineral bed is sized correctly and it is getting the right salt dosage based on the actual water quality and water usage of the household. A cheaper Menards type unit may last for decades if set correctly, however if there are other issues with the water, a lot of the times, the internals of these knock off valves cannot stand up.

Well again, you are not selling me on the super premium brands. I have very high iron and extreme hardness and my Sears unit is working just great. There is a local 'water guy' who does free water tests, he sells salt (cheap) and helps calibrate softeners, no matter who sold them.

Mine personal residence uses just over 1 bag per month on average ( includes laundry, washing vehicles, etc. - everything except watering outdoor potted plants ) - a little more if guests staying few days. So do the math of salt savings over the years ( as I said previously, one of mine is 30 years old with zero repairs in that time). Granted, your situation may not be the same as mine...just stating what my experience has been. The first one was purchased after asking for recommendation from a friend in home construction. All 3 of mine replaced other brands/types that were much more expensive to operate. Water quality is also excellent so I will stick with what has worked well for me. Tenants have also commented to me regarding less salt usage, etc. compared to their previous experience.

The problem with comparing salt usage is that 1) I don't know your water volume use. 2) you don't know my water volume use. 3) I don't know how hard your water is. 4) You don't know how hard my water is. Etc Etc Etc.

Unless we can compare apples to apples then it makes no sense to try to do the math on salt savings.

I can tell you that my sister in law has a super premium brand of softener at her place (she rents from me, but I told her that she had to supply her own softener as part of rent reduction) and she has much worse water than I do and uses as much salt as I do but she lives alone. Her well is about 500 feet away from my well since she lives in my guest house on the edge of my property.

 

[Tnichols00]

Sterling Water Treatment | A water softener and treatment company in Churubusco Indiana
Made right here in Indiana and great customer service. I bought this over a Kenetico a few years back simply because when I called them they were very helpful. I have had no problems with there product yet.

 

[looney2ns]

Buy the properly sized Kenmore for your situation. Be sure to set it correctly for the water hardness. I like the demand regeneration units. Bought my last one to replace my 20yr Kenmore for $399 on sale at sears. It has demand regeneration.

Take the money saved and purchase a new gun and call it good.

 

[WebSnyper]

Ours is from Aqua Systems...trouble free for over 8 years.

Here's another happy Aquasystems user. We replaced an old one with a new system a couple of years ago and have the softest water imaginable. The AS guys were right on time and service is great, (if you actually needed it. I've got a 7 year warranty on mine (got it through a special they were running), most of their warranties are still 5 years. Works very well and doesn't eat up half the salt our old one did. (They currently have one at AS for about 200 less than the one at Menard's you posted).

Aqua Systems - Water Softeners Bottled Water Drinking Water

+ 3 on the Aquasystems. I also have their RO system. Everything works fine but I got 15 years out of my Sears unit so I can't really say it's better.

I have an Aqua Systems in my house, and had one in the previous house (along with an RO there). I cannot say if it is better or worse as I have only owned Aqua Systems softeners. They have worked, with no issues, and they did a good job on the installations. It did not seem crazily priced at the time, and as others have mentioned the brine tank is separate. They have a variety of models at different price points. I'd go with them again if I needed another.

 

[Stschil]

so over a 20 year lifespan (my house is now approaching 20 years old) I could have saved up to $6 per year, or a total of $120. But it costs between $1500 and $2000 to buy a super premium brand versus $500-$600 for a KENMORE from Sears. So its still doesn't make sense.

Well again, you are not selling me on the super premium brands. I have very high iron and extreme hardness and my Sears unit is working just great. There is a local 'water guy' who does free water tests, he sells salt (cheap) and helps calibrate softeners, no matter who sold them.

Not trying to sell you on any of the premium brands, nor did I even implicate that the one you have is substandard. IIRC Kenmore uses a Fleck produced valve, which as I stated above, is my preference. Culligan has worked with Fleck for decades on the development and production of valves. Their Twin tanks systems both brass and later plastic models are Fleck. (If I were in the market to buy a system, it would be a twin with a Fleck 6000 valve head) The MK 49, 89, and 100's were all designed and produced for Culligan by Fleck.
One thing I didn't mention though, were the warranties. Culligan does have lifetimes on most of their mineral tanks and on the brine tanks as well. Many (not all) of the other brand names do not. Some carry only 1 year.

FWIW: I don't work for Culligan any longer and don't really have a dog in the fight. I was just pointing out some of the differences, that is all.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Very interesting because you spent 3x as much on a Kinetico than I spent on a Sears KENMORE and you need to buy replacement parts but mine never fails. Now I really don't understand the point of why you spent 3x what I spent.

The Kinetico that I paid $1500 for, back in the early '90s is still working fine, with never a hicup. The one I had to buy parts for was an even older unit, that I was able to rebuild for around $50, and which now works fine also. I still don't know if I'd buy another one, for the reasons I spelled out, but I also think I got (and am still getting) a good value for the one I bought.

 

[Hardscrable]

Very interesting because you spent 3x as much on a Kinetico than I spent on a Sears KENMORE and you need to buy replacement parts but mine never fails. Now I really don't understand the point of why you spent 3x what I spent.




So over a 20 year lifespan (my house is now approaching 20 years old) I could have saved up to $6 per year, or a total of $120. But it costs between $1500 and $2000 to buy a super premium brand versus $500-$600 for a KENMORE from Sears. So its still doesn't make sense.

Well again, you are not selling me on the super premium brands. I have very high iron and extreme hardness and my Sears unit is working just great. There is a local 'water guy' who does free water tests, he sells salt (cheap) and helps calibrate softeners, no matter who sold them.





The problem with comparing salt usage is that 1) I don't know your water volume use. 2) you don't know my water volume use. 3) I don't know how hard your water is. 4) You don't know how hard my water is. Etc Etc Etc.

Unless we can compare apples to apples then it makes no sense to try to do the math on salt savings.

I can tell you that my sister in law has a super premium brand of softener at her place (she rents from me, but I told her that she had to supply her own softener as part of rent reduction) and she has much worse water than I do and uses as much salt as I do but she lives alone. Her well is about 500 feet away from my well since she lives in my guest house on the edge of my property.

I believe that I stated that your situation may not be the same & that I was merely putting forth my personal experience. I replaced other brands and have experienced savings afterwards. I do not have a dog in this fight. You have already made up your mind and are free to do as you choose. I have another house that we will soon be remodeling before renting. The softener will be replaced with another Kinetico. They work for ME. They have been trouble free. The local company has treated me well. I have no reason to change. You are free to do as you choose. I wish you well but have no interest in wasting my time arguing with you.

As a separate note, I am done buying anything from Sears...and I have spent a ton of $$$ with them over the last 45 years. I still own a lot of Craftsman & Kenmore products. However I have noticed a marked decline in product quality in last couple years. My last purchase ($500 product) was made in Feb...delivered in March...first used in late May...and failed in early June. The "product" had a one year warranty. I took it back. Was told would need to be sent in and a $50 inspection fee. I told them which part needed to be replaced & I would do the work...just get me the part. Was then told that part only had a 90 day warranty and I had purchased over 90 days ago so no warranty coverage. They knew this because my product was not the first that had been returned recently to their store with the same part failure. I was told that since they were bought out by the same company that owns KMart, this is how things are going. I told them Sears would get no more of my money and left. I will not darken their door again.

 

[ws6guy]

aquasystems here. Price seemed reasonable and I also wanted an RO system so I was able to get a discount by getting at the same time. Also the water softener it replaced was a 24 year old aquasystem so I figured I would go with them again.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

The Kinetico that I paid $1500 for, back in the early '90s is still working fine, with never a hicup. The one I had to buy parts for was an even older unit, that I was able to rebuild for around $50, and which now works fine also. I still don't know if I'd buy another one, for the reasons I spelled out, but I also think I got (and am still getting) a good value for the one I bought.

I just replaced a Kinetico that lasted 12 years. One thing I learned through researching the replacement is that time doesn't matter so much as the amount of water softened. When we purchased that first Kinetico, the salesman was full of stories of softeners lasting 20+ years. What he didn't say was that was a single person or an old, retired couple who didn't use much water. I have four daughters, spread out in age so that we had at least two teenagers at home for all of the life of that softener. We were using a TON of water. So I don't feel too badly about the 12 year life, overall.

However, when I finally called Kinetico out to repair my softener, it was immediately obvious that they don't want to repair them; they want to sell new ones. Their pricing model is set up such that repairing them is stupid. $1600 for a rebuild with a 3-year warranty or $2200 for a completely new one (with trade-in) and a ten year warranty? Gee, which would you pick? And you can't get parts from anybody but Kinetico, either, since they are proprietary. I could have bought a $500 Fleck controller and new resin myself, but then it becomes another project for me to maintain around the house.

I ended up getting a really good deal on the top-of-the-line GE and installed it myself. It has been absolutely fantastic for the 3 weeks we've had it so far. I saved a HUGE amount of what Kinetico would have charged.