When You Load or Unload It Can Go Bang!

[Kirk Freeman]

Again, for the umpteenth time, when you load and unload there is nothing magical about parking lots. Parking lots do not possess force fields.

If someone tells you to "just unload it in the parking lot" ask if you have use his car as a backstop.

Guns go bang. It's their only job.

If you have to jack with the gun, ensure that you have a safe fiddle area and follow the Four Rules.

If you do not you can shoot your grandson in the head:

Boy shot at Cabela’s - KansasCity.com

 

[EXLINE]

Couple years ago my buddy bought a 1911 and i wanted to see it. So he was grabbing it out of his holster and dropped the mag and racked the slide. BANG. and i feel asphalt belting my body. The bullet hit about 2 1/2 inches from my foot. I dont know what he did wrong or if it just happened. But it was a lesson learned.

 

[snorko]

Why TF was an "antique .22 rifle he was bringing in to have appraised" loaded?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Because . . . *say it with me* ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.

Loaded is the natural state of guns. To work they need to be loaded.

More to the point, why was he jacking with it in the magical parking lot instead of the sand barrel?

 

[GBuck]

So, Kirk, many "gun guys" say that there is no such thing as an AD, only the dreaded ND. I always disagree. Is it safe to say that you do too? Mind you, just because it's into a barrel doesn't make it not an AD.

 

[TomN]

Personally in 25 years of shooting I've never ever seen an AD, only NDs that people want to call ADs. Negligent is negligent.

 

[GBuck]

I have personally seen an AD, with zero fault of the operator.

 

[Rob377]

I have personally seen an AD, with zero fault of the operator.

Please explain. I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where this is possible.

 

[Sylvain]

Please explain. I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where this is possible.

Accidental discharge is when the gun fires by itself without the trigger being pulled, it can be a problem with the gun or the ammo.
It's when the gun doesn't work the way it's supposed to work.
It's very rare but can happen.

Negligent discharge is when it's the operator's fault, he usually pulls the trigger by mistake or fail to make sure that the chamber is empty when he clears the gun.
The gun works the way it's supposed to work but the shooter fired by mistake.

Both can happen, most of the times it's NDs that are wrongly called ADs.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Please explain. I'm having trouble envisioning a situation where this is possible.

Every time, every single time you load or unload, the firearm can discharge.

All platforms, but especially weapons with inertia firing pins, can discharge, dirty gun, high primer, something breaks, inter alia.

And now, we talk about the 870 at Shootrite. Triad class 2009 at Shootrite Academy (2 days pistol, carbine, and shotgun).

Non-dominant handed one loading drills behind cover with the shotgun. I am seated behind cover to load one shoot one, safety is on and my right hand is behind my back.

I load one round of Remington #00 into my Scattergun Technologies FBI Model 870. Upon closing the action the weapon discharges and clips off chunk of the cover. At no time did I touch the trigger.

Every time you load or unload the weapon may discharge. Next time you are at the range, load your AR-15 and then unload it. Sling arms and then pick the ejected cartridge up off the deck. Look at the primer, see how it is dented? Right, when you loaded your AR the firing pin was hitting the primer.

Search for my many threads (or just the Canadian General setting off his C7 by loading it) on how loading or unloading causes weapons to fire.

Stick around guns often and long enough and you'll hear all kinds of strange stuff that does exist but no one in the gun store will tell you about it.

 

[Rob377]

Accidental discharge is when the gun fires by itself without the trigger being pulled, it can be a problem with the gun or the ammo.
It's when the gun doesn't work the way it's supposed to work.
It's very rare but can happen.

Negligent discharge is when it's the operator's fault, he usually pulls the trigger by mistake or fail to make sure that the chamber is empty when he clears the gun.
The gun works the way it's supposed to work but the shooter fired by mistake.

Both can happen, most of the times it's NDs that are wrongly called ADs.

Failure to maintain your equipment in serviceable condition is negligence as well. If some clown decides he wants to do a trigger job 1911 and take off 90% of his hammer hooks, and it discharges without a trigger pull, its still negligence.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Failure to maintain your equipment in serviceable condition is negligence as well.

It happens no matter how well maintained the weapon is.

 

[Rob377]

Every time, every single time you load or unload, the firearm can discharge.

All platforms, but especially weapons with inertia firing pins, can discharge, dirty gun, high primer, something breaks, inter alia.

And now, we talk about the 870 at Shootrite. Triad class 2009 at Shootrite Academy (2 days pistol, carbine, and shotgun).

Non-dominant handed one loading drills behind cover with the shotgun. I am seated behind cover to load one shoot one, safety is on and my right hand is behind my back.

I load one round of Remington #00 into my Scattergun Technologies FBI Model 870. Upon closing the action the weapon discharges and clips off chunk of the cover. At no time did I touch the trigger.

Every time you load or unload the weapon may discharge. Next time you are at the range, load your AR-15 and then unload it. Sling arms and then pick the ejected cartridge up off the deck. Look at the primer, see how it is dented? Right, when you loaded your AR the firing pin was hitting the primer.

Search for my many threads (or just the Canadian General setting off his C7 by loading it) on how loading or unloading causes weapons to fire.

Stick around guns often and long enough and you'll hear all kinds of strange stuff that does exist but no one in the gun store will tell you about it.

Maybe if they have a piece of crap weapon that isn't in serviceable condition, but that's still negligence.

People make up a lot of BS to excuse their negligence - "The safety was on, swear!!" " my finger wasn't on the trigger, I swear"

 

[Sylvain]

Failure to maintain your equipment in serviceable condition is negligence as well. If some clown decides he wants to do a trigger job 1911 and take off 90% of his hammer hooks, and it discharges without a trigger pull, its still negligence.

Well in a way it's true.
But let's say you are shooting with someone else's gun, the gun goes off by itself (you didn't pull the trigger), then it's a AD.You were not negligent, maybe the owner of the gun was if he didn't maintain the gun, but for you it's an accident.

Also you can get a gun that has a problem straight from the factory, sometimes it's a design problem.Sure someone was probably negligent to let those guns leave the factory like that but for the shooter if something wrong happens it's a AD.

I know a gun company had a problem with one of their models, the de-cocker made the gun shoot when you had a live round in the chamber.
That's a AD, the gun is not supposed to work like that and that's not the shooter's fault.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

People make up a lot of BS to excuse their negligence - "The safety was on, swear!!" " my finger wasn't on the trigger, I swear"

I do not need to make up an excuse. It happened in front of witnesses. I closed the action and it discharged. The weapon was on safe and my finger was no where near the trigger.

It happens. The weapon can be in tip top condition.

Denial is not a gun safety mechanism. Be aware that it can happen and then no one will be hurt when it does happen.

 

[Rob377]

Well in a way it's true.
But let's say you are shooting with someone else's gun, the gun goes off by itself (you didn't pull the trigger), then it's a AD.You were not negligent, maybe the owner of the gun was if he didn't maintain the gun, but for you it's an accident.

Also you can get a gun that has a problem straight from the factory, sometimes it's a design problem.Sure someone was probably negligent to let those guns leave the factory like that but for the shooter if something wrong happens it's a AD.

I know a gun company had a problem with one of their models, the de-cocker made the gun shoot when you had a live round in the chamber.
That's a AD, the gun is not supposed to work like that and that's not the shooter's fault.

In those scenarios, I'd agree.

However, guns don't go bang without a reason. They are inanimate objects. If a gun has been in the the owner's control and care and "goes off," then res ipsa loquitur. (just for Kirk )

 

[Kirk Freeman]

However, guns don't go bang without a reason.

Right, in ADs mechanical failure or out of spec ammo or a fall.

However, one cannot predict or see the reason (falls, mechanical failures, etc.). One cannot wish ADs away by denying that they happen.

What we can do is minimize the danger created by loading or unloading firearms. For example, we can point it at something safe like a sand barrel instead of our grandson.

 

[Sylvain]

Right, in ADs mechanical failure or out of spec ammo or a fall.

However, one cannot predict or see the reason (falls, mechanical failures, etc.). One cannot wish ADs away by denying that they happen.

What we can do is minimize the danger created by loading or unloading firearms. For example, we can point it at something safelike a sand barrel instead of our grandson.

I will start to believe that you work for a sand barrel company Kirk.
You can also use other things instead of your grandson.

I myself work for a phone book company.

 

[Rob377]

Right, in ADs mechanical failure or out of spec ammo or a fall.

However, one cannot predict or see the reason (falls, mechanical failures, etc.). One cannot wish ADs away by denying that they happen.

What we can do is minimize the danger created by loading or unloading firearms. For example, we can point it at something safe like a sand barrel instead of our grandson.

carrying poorly designed weapons, Failure to maintain them, failure to control them, and failure to inspect the ammo you put in them= still negligence.

tolerating BS "it just went off" excuses isn't a viable safety practice either.

No one is arguing that guns shouldn't be pointed in a safe direction at all times. I'm arguing that 99.999999999% of so called ADs are NDs.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

No, just want to ensure we limit the causalties we cause ourselves in the gun culture.

Problem is that it happens in such a small percentage of the time that gun owners become complacent and even deny that it can happen. Thus ensuring that when it does happen something will really go wrong.