Where are all the bone stock ARs for sale!!

[AngryRooster]

This way of profiteering is pretty standard among douche bags I have crossed paths with. Yup, I said it. And I stand by the remark.
Harley's was pretty much the same thing for a while. Everybody wanted one and they were sold out so the flippers and carpet baggers jumped in with both feet. Pretty much wrecked the market for those of us that actually wanted to ride them. Bike shops sprang up everywhere and proceeded to rape and pillage. Only a handful remain.

Muscles cars were next. Snake oil salesmen came out of the wood work and are still operating but not as lucrative these days. Same deal. "Restoration" shops opened, robbed and closed.

Sandyhook brought the side show carny crowd out in force. Lined up to snatch all the .22 they could and it was on line at 4 to 5 times what they paid for it.

Now, who is at fault here. Reality shows that if a market opens up......some dip weed will milk it dry.

There was a decent amount of that here, including lowers, parts, mags & accessories. Lots of flippers that wanted their share of the pie. I still have a list, I still won't deal with anyone on it. Most of the flippers then are still flippers & squatters now.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

When building an AR, does it require machining equipment and lots of 'gunsmithing' knowledge or ate they a little more 'plug and play' or in between?

 

[churchmouse]

When building an AR, does it require machining equipment and lots of 'gunsmithing' knowledge or ate they a little more 'plug and play' or in between?

If you get decent parts they usually just bolt together but you do need some tools to do it right.

 

[ditcherman]

This way of profiteering is pretty standard among douche bags I have crossed paths with. Yup, I said it. And I stand by the remark.
Harley's was pretty much the same thing for a while. Everybody wanted one and they were sold out so the flippers and carpet baggers jumped in with both feet. Pretty much wrecked the market for those of us that actually wanted to ride them. Bike shops sprang up everywhere and proceeded to rape and pillage. Only a handful remain.

Muscles cars were next. Snake oil salesmen came out of the wood work and are still operating but not as lucrative these days. Same deal. "Restoration" shops opened, robbed and closed.

Sandyhook brought the side show carny crowd out in force. Lined up to snatch all the .22 they could and it was on line at 4 to 5 times what they paid for it.

Now, who is at fault here. Reality shows that if a market opens up......some dip weed will milk it dry.

We have a saying on the farm, "the cure for high prices, are high prices" probably applies here as well.

 

[Hohn]

We have a saying on the farm, "the cure for high prices, are high prices" probably applies here as well.

It does. And as long as there is a gap between market prices and what someone can get it for, there will be middlemen skimming that profit.

The solution to these flippers and other people taking advantage would be simple: let the retailer raise prices closer to the market rate. Of course, then we have to put up with endless INGO threads on how "Rural King Gouged me" or so forth because RK had the temerity to charge market rates that will keep stock on the shelf rather than be perpetually sold out of something by profiteers cleaning them out.

A product available at a high price beats unobtainable at ANY price.

 

[Vigilant]

It does. And as long as there is a gap between market prices and what someone can get it for, there will be middlemen skimming that profit.

The solution to these flippers and other people taking advantage would be simple: let the retailer raise prices closer to the market rate. Of course, then we have to put up with endless INGO threads on how "Rural King Gouged me" or so forth because RK had the temerity to charge market rates that will keep stock on the shelf rather than be perpetually sold out of something by profiteers cleaning them out.

A product available at a high price beats unobtainable at ANY price.

INGO Socialists at work, profit is bad. Mmmkay

 

[ditcherman]

It does. And as long as there is a gap between market prices and what someone can get it for, there will be middlemen skimming that profit.

The solution to these flippers and other people taking advantage would be simple: let the retailer raise prices closer to the market rate. Of course, then we have to put up with endless INGO threads on how "Rural King Gouged me" or so forth because RK had the temerity to charge market rates that will keep stock on the shelf rather than be perpetually sold out of something by profiteers cleaning them out.

A product available at a high price beats unobtainable at ANY price.

Not to a retailer though, they want to move all the product they can, and while some may raise prices many are just set on a fixed margin and are not going look at the market forces at work until it's too late, like the .22 crisis a few years back.
If its sitting on their shelf they can't tell their supplier they need more.

 

[BigRed]

I got rid of all my ARs back when the market was in a panic and I could recover my cost along with a strong profit.

Now I don't have any.

 

[Hohn]

INGO Socialists at work, profit is bad. Mmmkay

My post complains that retailers aren't taking ENOUGH profit.

 

[Hohn]

Not to a retailer though, they want to move all the product they can, and while some may raise prices many are just set on a fixed margin and are not going look at the market forces at work until it's too late, like the .22 crisis a few years back.
If its sitting on their shelf they can't tell their supplier they need more.

That's a false choice. It's not like the hoarders will skim all the bricks at $30/each but at $40ea all ammo sales cease. There is a price that exists between perpetually sold out and no sales at all.

A retailer foolish enough to let middlemen take THEIR profit is doing nobody but them any good. They aren't helping the customers and they aren't helping themselves.


Consider the case of gasoline "gouging" after the hurricanes hit down South. When there's an ACTUAL shortage, the profit motive induced the "gougers" to bring gasoline from far away and provide a sorely needed resource. They benefit and the end users benefit by receiving something they need, rather than having a perpetual shortage cause by a refusal to raise prices. If there was a law against raising prices in times of crisis, the gasoline shortages would drag on and on and suffering would prolong. The ability to "gouge" in the short term solves the problem quickly and supply and prices soon return to normal.

The retailers that refused to raise prices closer to market rates had the exact same effect as a government law preventing "gouging" of hurricane victims. It prolonged a shortage needlessly. And they forfeited profits rightfully theirs to a bunch of hoarding re-distributors.


Although, given how vindictive and petty many consumers of gun-related items are, I can't say I blame the retailers. How dare they raise prices far enough to keep inventory on the shelf, lest they be "gouging" their customers. So when RK raised prices to $35/brick of thunderbolt, they are "gouging", but when WMT is perpetually out of stock at $25/brick and those same bricks show up at gun shows for $50, somehow WMT is the hero for not taking advantage of customers?

Dunham's illustrates exactly what I'm talking about. They are dutifully helping the customers fend off a .22LR shortage by keeping the Christmas 2016 CCI Standard packs on the shelf at $5.99/50. I'm shocked, just shocked that it's still on the shelf.

 

[Vigilant]

My post complains that retailers aren't taking ENOUGH profit.

I was agreeing with you in a pithy, sarcastic sort of way. Just letting you know that profit is a bad word to gun owners in general, folks’ll cut your throat over pennies in the gun world, then complain their local gun store charges too much for a transfer.

 

[JeepHammer]

Costs me around $1,000 for military grade parts to build a basic copy of a service rifle...
I have to keep the lights on, pay taxes, pay insurance, buy & replace machine tools & tool bits, and somewhere in there I'm going to need to eat & buy cloths (No one wants to see me naked).

The shop breaks even around $1,500 and the rifle runs & shoots as well as you can expect, since I build for accuracy & longevity rather than economy.

I don't buy 'Slap Together' parts,
Gas blocks have to be honed to fit the barrel so there isn't any gas leakage, chamber nuts are adjusted so feed ramp don't have edges to cause failure to feed, upper receiver is faced off so the barrel isn't cocked sideways, sights line up with the barrel & the bolt locks up solidly with chamber lugs, barrel & bolt are X-rayed & MPI inspected, etc.
No cheap, substandard parts, no kitchen table slapped together assembly.
Everything is at least National Match quality or better.

And after all that,
Then I have to eat, put gas in the to & from work vehicle, pay plates & insurance, put tires on that vehicle.
AND, I'd like to come out of it with some kind of a profit, I want a home, retirement, etc.
Keep in mind I've been here 20 years and I intend to stay so the warranty is worth something,
And being here 20 years means I pay my suppliers, I don't rip people off.
I'm not the type to run up a bunch of bills then duck out on the bills, and I have to make a living....
Add another $140-$150 for my knowledge & labor.

Now we are up to around $1,650...

During the first gulf war, Marines were charged $3,500 for an M16A4 when they destroyed it by loss or stupidity.
That's a $1,850 savings.
As I understand, an M4 will get you a $4,500 or $5,000 dent in the wallet now if you screw up in the military.

The question is, what's your definition of 'Standard'?
And what are you willing to pay for that 'Standard'?

Hot Rodders have a saying,
"Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?"

 

[Thumper]

I have a few but they will never be for sale.They are getting hard to find

 

[JeepHammer]

When building an AR, does it require machining equipment and lots of 'gunsmithing' knowledge or ate they a little more 'plug and play' or in between?

There are minor fitting issues that MUST be addressed or you will be dealing with failures.

The biggie is the barrel.
There is no point in building an accuracy rifle (opposed to a 'Shortie') and that barrel costs more than the discount store specials.
With import barrels with the quality of melted beer cans & machining done with a broken brick running as little as $12 each when bought in bulk, you know right up front where they are cutting corners.

The heart of any rifle is the barrel, you simply can't cut corners here, and if you pay a little too much for a barrel up front, it evens out the more you shoot it.
Remember, a quality barrel lasts a LONG time, while the barrels made from concrete rebar go south VERY quickly.

The second big deal is getting a good bolt.
The bolt, and to just slightly lesser extent, the bolt carrier MUST for the chamber of the barrel, and lock up solidly & consistently.
If the lock isn't solid, you run a very real risk of eating the bolt carrier group (BCG).
It's never going to run right, and it's never going to consistently lock up in the same place.

--------------

The next step is the upper receiver,
Most uppers will suffice, but consider the manufacturing process...
The barrel nut threads are rolled into aluminum, or they are cut (rolled is better, but both will work).
Either way, that tube sticking out is mangled by a machine, so the front face where the barrel seats isn't square cut inline with the bore anymore.

Then these things get dipped in an acid bath & coated, 99.99% of the time they are hung by the back mating pin lug hole.
That allows both acid & coating to run down & build up on the surface that squares the barrel...

That surface MUST be cut/lapped/ground square or the barrel/chamber nut (with locking lugs) will be cocked sideways.
The bolt has exactly zero chance of locking all lugs evenly, and the barrel will be cocked sideways to any optics you mount on the upper.

This upper is being faced off, it was actually about 0.075" skewed, and it's a milspec forged upper from a military contractor.
You can see how much has been removed, and it's still not close to square with the bore of the upper receiver.

This is the finished upper, front mating surface is FINALLY square to the upper receiver bore like it needs to be to keep from cocking the barrel/chamber nut sideways...

Having the bullet way too high (barrel cocked up) or too low (cocked down) is bad, since to compensate for the muzzle angle you will be WAY out of line of the optical center of the lenses,
But cocked sideways or some diagonal angle will send the bullet sideways to the line of sight is worse.

The worst part is the bolt locking lugs never get a chance to lock up square with the chamber nut lugs.
The bolt is on a center line with the upper/bolt carrier, the barrel lugs are angled off with the barrel.
Usually just one or two lugs on the bolt is taking the entire recoil force, and that's REAL bad, as in dangerous bad!

-----------

One of the biggest complaints I get is failure to feed back into battery.
Again, the mating surface between barrel & upper.

Either the barrel nut isn't square cut cocking the barrel, or the mating surface in the upper (shiny surface above) is stopping the barrel in the wrong location to feed correctly.

The chamber nut has two feed ramps cut into it, seating the barrel too short, too long, or having a cocked chamber nut threaded onto the barrel leaves a ridge exposed and the round stripped off the mag hangs up on it.
Doesn't have to stop the bolt cold, just enough drag the bolt can't chamber the round and the bolt to lock...

I check the chamber nut to be sure it's cut square, and either shave off some on the front of the upper, or use shims to locate the barrel back forward so there is no ridge for the rounds to hang up on.

Checking the chamber nut,

The only reason I'm giving this away is because it's a safety issue.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Ok have that super helpful write up I may be silly in asking this. But I was considering picking up a lower at the next gun show and then strapping it to this:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...ok-classic-rifle-kit-with-mbus-sight-set.html


Would I be pissing money away here?

 

[JeepHammer]

Anyone can say anything on the internet, doesn't make it true...

The truth is, I build most of the time because after building Marine Corps match rifles and Special Weapons I simply don't take the word of anyone anymore. Believe it or not.

I'm probably the only guy that took apart a Knight (KAC) SR25 and checked everything before it fired the first round unless it got fired at the factory.
(Knight does everything right, but at the prices they charge, it should be!)

Buyer Beware.
The first thing that jumped out at me from your link was they didn't name the barrel manufacturer.
Just "4150V Chrome Moly",
Didn't say if it was made in house, or sub-contracted.
The folks that use the top end barrels usually crow about using top end barrels... Just a red flag for me...

 

[d.kaufman]

Ok have that super helpful write up I may be silly in asking this. But I was considering picking up a lower at the next gun show and then strapping it to this:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...ok-classic-rifle-kit-with-mbus-sight-set.html


Would I be pissing money away here?

You'll be just fine.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Thanks.

 

[JeepHammer]

You'll be just fine.

There you have it! A WARRANTY!

 

[JeepHammer]

Unmolested, good quality AR rifles,

https://www.fulton-armory.com/fariflecal556mmupruniversalprecisionrifle-3-2-2-3-1.aspx

Might want to scroll a little on this one and have a look at what top end barrel upper sell for...

Service Rifle Uppers

Another top end barreled upper,

National Match Service Rifle Upper - Bison Armory Store

The next time someone says they bought a 1,000 yard rifle for $299, just smile & walk away...