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Where would you shoot a bad guy in self defense?
- Thread starter lovemachine
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Joe Williams
Shooter
- Jun 26, 2008
- 10,431
- 38
Nope, but im sure your vast experience out weighs mine on these issue's so I will sit here and listen and learn
I am genuinely curious about your experience, outside of being a trainer? I know lots of folks here are impressed with your classes, but people have a habit of being loyal to whatever school they've gone to.
Been a number of years since I've attended professional training aside from the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor class (not quite what we're talking about here) and my wife never has. We're both in need.
sure no sweat
I worked as a sheriffs deputy for 15 years in detroit mi, nothing special
I have attended classes and instructor schools totaling about 500 hours worth and keep doing so every year to keep current and fresh, I also write for surefire magazine covering training and weapons related issues, i have also beta tested and given direct input to various manufactures here based out of Michigan on optic's and a few others been featured in swat magazine and on it given a great mention as well by Pat rogers in there too,
this year list includes approx 5-7 more classes im taking previously taught for NTFT and another local group under there umbrella, have also taught local area LEO and MIL guys and team's shoot 2/3 gun some what competitive
our student base is very diverse if you read some of the reviews posted our students have trained with a lot of others not only us...
we teach students to become more efficient and confident in there abilities and to become more aware and go after a mindset and and how to fight with there chosen gear
i agree with the loyal thing, that is why we push students to go elsewhere and learn more from others, we often see them back after that and hear reports back from there other trainers about there performances.....
no one can give it all there are always other ways
I worked as a sheriffs deputy for 15 years in detroit mi, nothing special
I have attended classes and instructor schools totaling about 500 hours worth and keep doing so every year to keep current and fresh, I also write for surefire magazine covering training and weapons related issues, i have also beta tested and given direct input to various manufactures here based out of Michigan on optic's and a few others been featured in swat magazine and on it given a great mention as well by Pat rogers in there too,
this year list includes approx 5-7 more classes im taking previously taught for NTFT and another local group under there umbrella, have also taught local area LEO and MIL guys and team's shoot 2/3 gun some what competitive
our student base is very diverse if you read some of the reviews posted our students have trained with a lot of others not only us...
we teach students to become more efficient and confident in there abilities and to become more aware and go after a mindset and and how to fight with there chosen gear
i agree with the loyal thing, that is why we push students to go elsewhere and learn more from others, we often see them back after that and hear reports back from there other trainers about there performances.....
no one can give it all there are always other ways
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Track'd!
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kingnereli
Master
Very nice reviews of what Steve does are not hard to come by. I don't intend to demean his experience. I have even suggested my brother (He lives near Grand Rapids) to MDFI for training for when he picks up his first pistol. It is just that Mike's evolvement in INGO threads usually entails an immediate assumption that those who disagree with him are some form of unlearned newbs and a fair amount of horn tooting. I'm sure we could all learn something if he would simply share his expertise rather then putting people down. It's a shame.
Can... not... resist.....
I could shoot them with a fox.
I will shoot them with a mouse.
I will shoot them in a house.
I will shoot them here or there.
I will shoot them anywhere.
I do not like bad guys... BLAM!
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
I would shoot them in a box.
I could shoot them with a fox.
I will shoot them with a mouse.
I will shoot them in a house.
I will shoot them here or there.
I will shoot them anywhere.
I do not like bad guys... BLAM!
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.
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I agree with him. I take human life serious as we all do on here..but if my life is threaten I will do whats necessary
.30 Cal Al
Plinker
- Nov 25, 2009
- 58
- 8
Hi
Mozambique Technique. Two center-mass, quick evaluation, aimed head-shot if needed.
Mozambique Technique. Two center-mass, quick evaluation, aimed head-shot if needed.
Center mass until the threat is neutralized. Not sure if I would personally be confident enough to take a headshot in the heat of the moment. Not when a miss could hit some poor soul who was at the wrong place at the wrong time. I have no doubts about hitting center mass but a headshot under that kind of stress would require more range time for me.....which I'm working on!
The subject of the "head shot" is one that gets tossed around quite often in forums such as these, and I think it's important that certain issues be addressed so that there are no misconceptions.
Many of us are too young to remember the name Sonny Liston, but he was a boxer who in 1962 defeated Floyd Patterson for the heavy weight championship, and he later went on to fight Muhammad Ali.
Liston was found dead by his wife in 1970 and an autopsy was performed. The coroners name was Ron Flood, and he was a student of Mas Ayoob's years later. Ron told Mas that he had to send out for a larger saw blade in order to cut through Listons skull, which, as it turns out, measured ONE INCH THICK!
Now, I don't really care what caliber handgun you shoot someone like that in the forehead with, it's not going to penetrate. Granted, will our next gunfight be against the likes of a Sonny Liston - I don't know. But I do know that pistol bullets ricochet off of bone mass all the time. I also know that shooting people "in the brain" is no guarantee that they will stop fighting. They used to do lobotomies on people all the time - you can remove the entire frontal lobe and about all that happens is the person doesn't get the jokes anymore.
The only place we can shoot someone in the head that will guarantee an instant shut down is the brian stem.
http://www.chiffandfipple.com/cf5-23-03/brainstem.jpg
As you can see from the above picture, that's not much of a target. It's a target that I know I CANNOT hit without getting Mr. Badguy to stand still. Perhaps some here can hit that spot when a VCA is charging at him with his head bobbing & weaving, but I can't, and I also highly doubt he will stop moving during an attack because I ask him to.
Also, there is some history to the Mozambique Drill that we should all consider:
http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html
The "head shot" in the actual event the drill is based on was a hit between the collor bones which severed the spine. It was not in the head at all.
I'm not suggesting that anyone's training rutine is incorrect, all I'm doing here is asking if those who pratice "Two to the chest, one to the head" are basing that tactic on all the information available.
Many of us are too young to remember the name Sonny Liston, but he was a boxer who in 1962 defeated Floyd Patterson for the heavy weight championship, and he later went on to fight Muhammad Ali.
Liston was found dead by his wife in 1970 and an autopsy was performed. The coroners name was Ron Flood, and he was a student of Mas Ayoob's years later. Ron told Mas that he had to send out for a larger saw blade in order to cut through Listons skull, which, as it turns out, measured ONE INCH THICK!
Now, I don't really care what caliber handgun you shoot someone like that in the forehead with, it's not going to penetrate. Granted, will our next gunfight be against the likes of a Sonny Liston - I don't know. But I do know that pistol bullets ricochet off of bone mass all the time. I also know that shooting people "in the brain" is no guarantee that they will stop fighting. They used to do lobotomies on people all the time - you can remove the entire frontal lobe and about all that happens is the person doesn't get the jokes anymore.
The only place we can shoot someone in the head that will guarantee an instant shut down is the brian stem.
As you can see from the above picture, that's not much of a target. It's a target that I know I CANNOT hit without getting Mr. Badguy to stand still. Perhaps some here can hit that spot when a VCA is charging at him with his head bobbing & weaving, but I can't, and I also highly doubt he will stop moving during an attack because I ask him to.
Also, there is some history to the Mozambique Drill that we should all consider:
http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html
The "head shot" in the actual event the drill is based on was a hit between the collor bones which severed the spine. It was not in the head at all.
I'm not suggesting that anyone's training rutine is incorrect, all I'm doing here is asking if those who pratice "Two to the chest, one to the head" are basing that tactic on all the information available.
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Okay, I think people are now typing "center of mass" just to drive me insane.
If this continues, I vow to launch a campaign of purposely saying "clip" and "bullet" in a context when "magazine" and "cartridge" are appropriate.
STOP SAYING "CENTER OF MASS." THE PLACE YOU'RE THINKING OF AS YOUR TARGET AREA (upper chest, centerline of body) IS NOT THE CENTER OF MASS OF THE HUMAN BODY.
The center of mass of average human bodies is at or just below the navel.
Center of Mass of a Human
You may want to shoot an attacker there, or it may be your only shot, but it's not the place on the body that is being called "center of mass" in this topic.
I feel better.
If this continues, I vow to launch a campaign of purposely saying "clip" and "bullet" in a context when "magazine" and "cartridge" are appropriate.
STOP SAYING "CENTER OF MASS." THE PLACE YOU'RE THINKING OF AS YOUR TARGET AREA (upper chest, centerline of body) IS NOT THE CENTER OF MASS OF THE HUMAN BODY.
The center of mass of average human bodies is at or just below the navel.
Center of Mass of a Human
You may want to shoot an attacker there, or it may be your only shot, but it's not the place on the body that is being called "center of mass" in this topic.
I feel better.
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.30 Cal Al
Plinker
- Nov 25, 2009
- 58
- 8
Hi
"Center mass," is just an abbreviation for, "center body mass:" Crotch to shoulders.
That moves it up to around the solar plexus, and gives you about a 9-inch radius 10-ring.
....
Ok - lets call it a 10-inch 10-ring, just because it's easier to say.
"Center mass," is just an abbreviation for, "center body mass:" Crotch to shoulders.
That moves it up to around the solar plexus, and gives you about a 9-inch radius 10-ring.
....
Ok - lets call it a 10-inch 10-ring, just because it's easier to say.
Joe Williams
Shooter
- Jun 26, 2008
- 10,431
- 38
I prefer to aim center of mass.
IOW, right between the boobies.
IOW, right between the boobies.
99zhuggerz99
Marksman
triple tap, two in the chest, one in the head. practice makes perfect on ta.ta.tap
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