Why does it seem like LEO's don't know how to use anything but their firearms?

[VUPDblue]

I'm saying that given no other choice but the firearm, then the outcome is inevitable. Lots of folks out there know that the cops aren't going to shoot them right off the bat and the mere presentation of a firearm doesn't seem to phase them a large portion of the time. Leave no other option and more folks will be shot. That's not what anyone wants.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I want to see if I can twirl my M&P like I've seen in cowboy movies.

I have told you to stay out of gun shows.

[Why does it seem like LEO's don't know how to use anything but their firearms?/QUOTE]

Dude, world is not a square range.

All the more reason for more training for all who carry firearms.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I'm saying that given no other choice but the firearm, then the outcome is inevitable. Lots of folks out there know that the cops aren't going to shoot them right off the bat and the mere presentation of a firearm doesn't seem to phase them a large portion of the time. Leave no other option and more folks will be shot. That's not what anyone wants.

Maybe some of us do

 

[Sfrandolph]

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

And you're saying those same suspects would NOT have become compliant if the officer had unholstered his sidearm?

So you're saying it is ok to use deadly force to apprehend someone wanted for a misdemeanor?

 

[Fred78]

For day to day operations give them one round and just maybe they will engage their brain before pulling the trigger.

 

[CathyInBlue]

So you're saying it is ok to use deadly force to apprehend someone wanted for a misdemeanor?

Wanted is wanted. However, if the warrant is defective and the LEO employs his ranged weapon (firearm) to perform the misd apprehension, then the LEO should go up on assault with a deadly. It's not just human relations skills that cops need to master, but all of the clerical details of law enforcement and not abuse of citizens under color of authority as well.

 

[MPH]

Wanted is wanted. However, if the warrant is defective and the LEO employs his ranged weapon (firearm) to perform the misd apprehension, then the LEO should go up on assault with a deadly. It's not just human relations skills that cops need to master, but all of the clerical details of law enforcement and not abuse of citizens under color of authority as well.

There is a "Good Faith" doctrine wherein if it can be shown that the warrant is active (checking with communications/dispatch prior to serving the warrant) and it is shown later that the warrant had expired (like a court clerk failing to remove the status of the warrant from active to inactive), the officers are immune, in other words, they had good faith that the warrant was active. And, although the warrant is as you posit here a misdemeanor, and a deadly force issue arises and the officer has to employ deadly force to counter, then any talk about "going up on assault with a deadly" is nothing but a pile of The only clerical skill that needs to be improved on would be the courts.

Nnnext!

 

[jbombelli]

I'm saying that given no other choice but the firearm, then the outcome is inevitable. Lots of folks out there know that the cops aren't going to shoot them right off the bat and the mere presentation of a firearm doesn't seem to phase them a large portion of the time. Leave no other option and more folks will be shot. That's not what anyone wants.

I'm not so sure about that. I've read a lot of threads here on INGO, and elsewhere, where people clamor for the death penalty or summary execution for all kinds of things. A LOT of people.

 

[VUPDblue]

Wanted is wanted. However, if the warrant is defective and the LEO employs his ranged weapon (firearm) to perform the misd apprehension, then the LEO should go up on assault with a deadly. It's not just human relations skills that cops need to master, but all of the clerical details of law enforcement and not abuse of citizens under color of authority as well.

Huh? So you want to take away the LEO's tools and then tell him that he can't use the only tool you left him, else he gets brought up on charges? That's pretty stupid. We have all those tools for a reason, so that force doesn't get escalated too much too quick and so that people get hurt less.
It seems like you are painting LEOs with a broad brush with the last part of your statement up there stating that we need to abandon our "normal" routine of violating rights and go back to actually learning the job and how to do it. What you advocate in your posts about taking away tools and leaving us with only hands and guns will contribute to what you see as abuse of citizens because your proposal leaves no room for stepped-escalation of force. Hands don't work? Bam, use the gun. LE as a profession has added tools and gotten away from that business model for a reason.

 

[j706]

I often wonder why I even read some of the crap some people come up with on here. It is almost like being at work...just when you thought you have seen/heard it all and nothing surprises you, you log on INGO and there it is. The distressing part is some of these people are even serous about what they post. Good grief!

 

[CathyInBlue]

There is a "Good Faith" doctrine wherein if it can be shown that the warrant is active (checking with communications/dispatch prior to serving the warrant) and it is shown later that the warrant had expired (like a court clerk failing to remove the status of the warrant from active to inactive), the officers are immune, in other words, they had good faith that the warrant was active. And, although the warrant is as you posit here a misdemeanor, and a deadly force issue arises and the officer has to employ deadly force to counter, then any talk about "going up on assault with a deadly" is nothing but a pile of The only clerical skill that needs to be improved on would be the courts.

Nnnext!

I'm aware of the "Good Faith" doctrine. Are you aware of Indiana Court of Appeals cases like Gunn v State?

I'm talking about gutting the "Good Faith" doctrine where there is no similar doctrine for the conduct of non-LEOs. If a non-LEO can't use a gun to defend someone they had a "good faith" belief needed apprehendin' like that and walk away with nothing but a stern talkin' to, neither should a LEO. And as for the courts' negligence, just haul those clerks into the next higher court right along side Ofc. Friendly who shot a fleeing suspect whose name was put on the warrant in error by the clerks because it was spelled similarly.

Welcome to the surveillance society where computer databases are trusted more than objective reality. If everyone else has to suffer at the hands of incompetent agents of government, so do those agents of government when those databases are in error or incomplete.

 

[Rookie]

Ban oxygen.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Huh? So you want to take away the LEO's tools and then tell him that he can't use the only tool you left him, else he gets brought up on charges? That's pretty stupid. We have all those tools for a reason, so that force doesn't get escalated too much too quick and so that people get hurt less.
It seems like you are painting LEOs with a broad brush with the last part of your statement up there stating that we need to abandon our "normal" routine of violating rights and go back to actually learning the job and how to do it. What you advocate in your posts about taking away tools and leaving us with only hands and guns will contribute to what you see as abuse of citizens because your proposal leaves no room for stepped-escalation of force. Hands don't work? Bam, use the gun. LE as a profession has added tools and gotten away from that business model for a reason.

The name of the game is to force LE to be more circumspect about their use of force. I have direct experience with the preexisting instinct to leap straight to the gun and skip right over all of those other tools, so you'll have to forgive me for not being overly enthusiastic about them, especially when I read stories of mentally disturbed people being bludgeoned to death with batons, people in diabetic shock being shocked to death with tasers, and people in asthmatic attacks being sprayed to death with OC and then the officers walking scot free when they stood around and did nothing to alleviate the death-dealing they had just done.

We have yet to see how the rogue cops in my situation are dealt with. This may or may not soften my opinion on LE use of force mentalities.

 

[MPH]

I'm aware of the "Good Faith" doctrine. Are you aware of Indiana Court of Appeals cases like Gunn v State?

I'm talking about gutting the "Good Faith" doctrine where there is no similar doctrine for the conduct of non-LEOs. If a non-LEO can't use a gun to defend someone they had a "good faith" belief needed apprehendin' like that and walk away with nothing but a stern talkin' to, neither should a LEO. And as for the courts' negligence, just haul those clerks into the next higher court right along side Ofc. Friendly who shot a fleeing suspect whose name was put on the warrant in error by the clerks because it was spelled similarly.

Welcome to the surveillance society where computer databases are trusted more than objective reality. If everyone else has to suffer at the hands of incompetent agents of government, so do those agents of government when those databases are in error or incomplete.

Point Bolded: Is this a common situation..a citizen arrest , and said citizen not being shielded? How often does this happen compared to a LEO making an arrest and using force? Or is this just blue-sky wishful thinking and being upset about a situation that exists maybe a tenth of a percent of the time?

Point Italicized and bolded also: Good luck in your efforts to have this accomplished. If you feel this is the way things should be, I applaud your efforts in making this happen. Sincerely.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Technical point, you do understand that quoted posts are entirely italicized? Maybe change your italicized point to an underlined point.

 

[MPH]

(Sigh) Ok, I fixed it. Can you respond to the first question please?

 

[VUPDblue]

The name of the game is to force LE to be more circumspect about their use of force. I have direct experience with the preexisting instinct to leap straight to the gun and skip right over all of those other tools, so you'll have to forgive me for not being overly enthusiastic about them, especially when I read stories of mentally disturbed people being bludgeoned to death with batons, people in diabetic shock being shocked to death with tasers, and people in asthmatic attacks being sprayed to death with OC and then the officers walking scot free when they stood around and did nothing to alleviate the death-dealing they had just done.

We have yet to see how the rogue cops in my situation are dealt with. This may or may not soften my opinion on LE use of force mentalities.

That's precisely my point. We are given the tools and training and expected to responsible with them. If officers prove irresponsible with the tools and either disregard their training, or use the tools without training, then they should be dealt with appropriately.

 

[churchmouse]

That's precisely my point. We are given the tools and training and expected to responsible with them. If officers prove irresponsible with the tools and either disregard their training, or use the tools without training, then they should be dealt with appropriately.

Bingo

 

[AJBB87]

The name of the game is to force LE to be more circumspect about their use of force. I have direct experience with the preexisting instinct to leap straight to the gun and skip right over all of those other tools, so you'll have to forgive me for not being overly enthusiastic about them, especially when I read stories of mentally disturbed people being bludgeoned to death with batons, people in diabetic shock being shocked to death with tasers, and people in asthmatic attacks being sprayed to death with OC and then the officers walking scot free when they stood around and did nothing to alleviate the death-dealing they had just done.

We have yet to see how the rogue cops in my situation are dealt with. This may or may not soften my opinion on LE use of force mentalities.

Evidently you have had an experience (of which I'm not familiar so please forgive me) on the non-LEO side of the fence.

Yet, without having experienced the LEO side of things (maybe you have been a LEO, though it certainly doesn't seem so) you feel qualified to make suggestions about the tactics and tools available to make their jobs safer for all involved.

Common on INGO but it never gets old...or wait...

Here is the part where you tell me how if you were in the same situation you would have done it different. Then I call B.S. because neither you nor I was there and there's no way to know what you would have done...

To the OP: Why does it seem that non-LEO's constantly pretend to know the facets of the job? Is it TV? Movies? News stories full of hyperbole?