Why does Ukraine matter?

[jamil]

Oh, I see. The thinking is the proximity of Mexico somehow makes it more important.

My opinion is that it is ok to have sympathy for those suffering due to either war or drug crime without necessarily supporting direct military action in either case.

Well hold on. First, I do have sympathy for those in Ukraine who are suffering. I also have sypathy for those in Africa who are suffer. I have sympathy for those In Mexico who are suffering. I have sympathy for those in the United States who are suffering. There isn’t a shortage of people in diverse places in the world who are suffering. Okay. So how much more sympathy should I have for Ukrainians who are suffering than anyone in the world who is suffer?

And you might say, well just because there’s a lot of suffering doesn’t make it morally right not to try to help. Okay. You’re right. But then it’s still an issue of who is most important for you to care about enough to spend your personal resources to help, because you can’t help them all.

And I get it. The Ukrainian suffering is near and dear to YOUR heart. It doesn’t have to be the top priority for everyone for them to be moral people. I think the shaming should end. And I’m sorry if putting it that offends you. The last several posts seem to be doing that.

I think it’s fine to appeal to people’s heart strings to gain some sympathetic priority for your cause. No doubt some people will respond to that. If they don’t, that doesn’t make them immoral.

I think given all the suffering all over the world, it’s fair and even expected that some people prioritize their sympathies towards the suffering closer to home.

 

[gvbcraig]

Well hold on. First, I do have sympathy for those in Ukraine who are suffering. I also have sypathy for those in Africa who are suffer. I have sympathy for those In Mexico who are suffering. I have sympathy for those in the United States who are suffering. There isn’t a shortage of people in diverse places in the world who are suffering. Okay. So how much more sympathy should I have for Ukrainians who are suffering than anyone in the world who is suffer?

And you might say, well just because there’s a lot of suffering doesn’t make it morally right not to try to help. Okay. You’re right. But then it’s still an issue of who is most important for you to care about enough to spend your personal resources to help, because you can’t help them all.

And I get it. The Ukrainian suffering is near and dear to YOUR heart. It doesn’t have to be the top priority for everyone for them to be moral people. I think the shaming should end. And I’m sorry if putting it that offends you. The last several posts seem to be doing that.

I think it’s fine to appeal to people’s heart strings to gain some sympathetic priority for your cause. No doubt some people will respond to that. If they don’t, that doesn’t make them immoral.

I think given all the suffering all over the world, it’s fair and even expected that some people prioritize their sympathies towards the suffering closer to home.

I’m not looking at shaming anyone.

This blog is titled “why Ukraine matters”. what is happening there is absolutely horrific, something I would not have expected to have share with people 2 months ago. i do have a sense of rage to what this people are going through.

Please start a blog of the suffering of others, I would gladly support you on that.

 

[Tombs]

Not to be mean, but human suffering and propaganda imagery doesn't really help explain why Ukraine matters.

It just conjures up memories of...

 

[jamil]

I’m not looking at shaming anyone.

This blog is titled “why Ukraine matters”. what is happening there is absolutely horrific, something I would not have expected to have share with people 2 months ago. i do have a sense of rage to what this people are going through.

Please start a blog of the suffering of others, I would gladly support you on that.

Like I said. This is something near and dear to you. You’ve posted this thread and made your points. And people push back and say, well, yeah. Other things matter too. And then you call them heartless. I’d not have said anything if you guys hadn’t gone there. You have a personal reason for this to matter this much to you. You and others have shared shared your reasons. Everyone else has their own causes and reasons too.

Just because you started a thread doesn’t mean it stays whatever you want it to be. It’s a forum. That means you post your thoughts about your topic and other people respond to that and post theirs. It becomes a conversation. And conversations go where they go. I feel bad for the innocent people of Ukraine who are suffering. But this obviously affects you a lot more personally than it does me and some other people in the conversation. That doesn’t make us heartless.

 

[KG1]

Like I said. This is something near and dear to you. You’ve posted this thread and made your points. And people push back and say, well, yeah. Other things matter too. And then you call them heartless. I’d not have said anything if you guys hadn’t gone there. You have a personal reason for this to matter this much to you. You and others have shared shared your reasons. Everyone else has their own causes and reasons too.

Just because you started a thread doesn’t mean it stays whatever you want it to be. It’s a forum. That means you post your thoughts about your topic and other people respond to that and post theirs. It becomes a conversation. And conversations go where they go. I feel bad for the innocent people of Ukraine who are suffering. But this obviously affects you a lot more personally than it does me and some other people in the conversation. That doesn’t make us heartless.

I think he took it to heart that the person who responded to his posts in the thread he started about the plight of the Ukrainian people appeared to be dismissive and it sounded like it was pretty much meaningless to him when we have bad things happening on our own borders that he cares more about. Kinda crass in the presentation dept. if you ask me. That's the problem I saw with it.

Otherwise I agree with him that we have bad things happening close to home here but I'm not gonna dump that on this guys thread at the expense of his concerns regarding what's happening in Ukraine.

 

[wagyu52]

Here is the link to the thread on an farm forum from a farmer in Ukraine. I’ve known this guy for years, same as some of you on here, even though we’ve never met. I trust his opinion and description of what’s taking place it’s been very insightful.

Viewing a thread - Update on the russian war in Ukraine

talk.newagtalk.com

His words.

First of all, many thanks to you my friends for asking what is happening in Ukraine. I strongly believe, this is also an important way to support us morally. This is a constituent of the cumulative energy sent to us to reinforce Ukrainians in their fight against russian orcs. So, once again - thank you for every word of support and your prayers. This is all about the common values globally. As we all understand, this war that russians started is not for particular assets or territory. Instead, this is a clash between civilizations with russia at one end representing the Evil and Dark in an effort to restore Soviet Union and Ukraine at the other end fighting for its existential right to live together with civilized world on the basis of common values such as freedom. So, it`s up to each of you to decide at which party you want to stay with.
We had a number of air strikes around aimed at diesel fuel storages. As a consequence, there is a sharp deficit of fuel. When it happened first, I bought as much as I could to fill up to the max of my fuel tanks. Almost all of my team were called to the Army. There are only three of us left at farm including me. So, I am living in the tractors for the last two weeks. We`ve just finished spreading fertilizers (potash, urea and AMS). We should start with UAN for corn tomorrow followed with vertical tillage tool with a fert box on it to apply zinc sulphate. Winter crops look OK, all of them survived the winter well and they already got N and S on them. Assumingly, in a week time we should be doing the first pass with herbicides. Canola is a different story - it will need a grass herbicide plus fungicide, insecticide and foliar boron. A lot of work to do ahead, but I feel really happy about that. My part of the country is not occupied and we take it as a great benefit and gratuity being able to farm and grow crops for the country when the rest of it is fighting hard with russian barbarians. There are different estimates but one of them says Ukraine will not be able to plant 25-30% of its land this year.
As you all know, Ukrainian Military Forces forced russians leave Kyiv, Chernigiv and Sumy area (the Northern part of the country). The picture we`ve seen in Bucha and other suburbs of Kyiv shocked all of the world. Hundreds of peaceful people tortured, raped, murdered.... Women and children.... It`s a pain inside the soul of each of us. The feeling that the part of you have been destroyed forever. My parents lived just 5 miles from there. They left on 9th of March but if they stayed longer they would have been killed too. Their property is fully destroyed but they are alive and stay safe in my house, this what is really important these days. We`ll never forget and admit what happened. It will be the duty of each of us to get them chased and killed for a payback. This is a cruel war and there is no place for mercy left for the enemy. I`m afraid, Mariupol is the next big city where the massive war crime by russians is happening these days. Yesterday, a russian missile hit the railroad station in Kramatorsk where thousand of people were waiting to get evacuated to the safer places to the north. 50 killed including 5 children and hundreds injured. This is all about the ****ing russian world. People who support this are bastards, they are in the same boat with russian criminals.
From military standpoint, the current situation is that russian troops retreated from the North and currently are regrouping and reinforcing with reserves and equipment. As long as they failed at the North and lost up to 25% of their military force, their next goal is to attack the Donbass region. Putin replaced the general commander of the russian crowd of military criminals. The intelligence reports they are likely to repeat the offensive at Kharkiv. If they succeed, surely the will try again to capture Kyiv. However, I don`t believe they have a chance for success. Russian troops are demotivated and scared. They are more likely marauders but not military proffessionals. The fresh reserve meat coming to fulfill the russian troops is even more scared and has near zero training. On the contrary, Ukrainian Forces and the society in general are highly motivated and mobilised, the fighting spirit is at the top notch ever. The same time, Ukrainians get more and more of high precision weapons from all over the world. I have to say the special THANK YOU to the US Senate that approved the bill on lend-lease for arms to Ukraine. That was done in WW2 to help beat Hitler and it really worked then. The history goes by cycles and now is the time for such a historical decision. I`m sure that will help put an end to the russian aggression and will save thousands of lives of Ukrainians.

Slava Ukrayini, Glory to Ukraine!
Heroyam Slava, Glory to Heroes!

Slava natsii, Glory to the Nation!
Smert` vorogam, Death to enemies!

Ukrayina ponad use, Ukraine above all!
These are the Ukrainan slogans we use to keep up the fighting spirit at high. It means there is no chance for russians orcs to put Ukraine at knees unless they kill all of us. But again - it won`t happen, much to the dismay of the russian fan club!

 

[ljk]

With all the money and arms flowing into Ukraine, where are the checks and balances on the politicians and Military Industrial Complex?

Trump was impeached because of a phone call to the same Ukraine.

The "Big Buy" made millions from the same Ukraine.

Last time we sent the same Stinger missiles to shot down Russians, 600 were unaccounted for, many ended up in the hands of Taliban.

Why are we keeping doing this?

 

[gvbcraig]

Here is the link to the thread on an farm forum from a farmer in Ukraine. I’ve known this guy for years, same as some of you on here, even though we’ve never met. I trust his opinion and description of what’s taking place it’s been very insightful.

Viewing a thread - Update on the russian war in Ukraine

talk.newagtalk.com

His words.

First of all, many thanks to you my friends for asking what is happening in Ukraine. I strongly believe, this is also an important way to support us morally. This is a constituent of the cumulative energy sent to us to reinforce Ukrainians in their fight against russian orcs. So, once again - thank you for every word of support and your prayers. This is all about the common values globally. As we all understand, this war that russians started is not for particular assets or territory. Instead, this is a clash between civilizations with russia at one end representing the Evil and Dark in an effort to restore Soviet Union and Ukraine at the other end fighting for its existential right to live together with civilized world on the basis of common values such as freedom. So, it`s up to each of you to decide at which party you want to stay with.
We had a number of air strikes around aimed at diesel fuel storages. As a consequence, there is a sharp deficit of fuel. When it happened first, I bought as much as I could to fill up to the max of my fuel tanks. Almost all of my team were called to the Army. There are only three of us left at farm including me. So, I am living in the tractors for the last two weeks. We`ve just finished spreading fertilizers (potash, urea and AMS). We should start with UAN for corn tomorrow followed with vertical tillage tool with a fert box on it to apply zinc sulphate. Winter crops look OK, all of them survived the winter well and they already got N and S on them. Assumingly, in a week time we should be doing the first pass with herbicides. Canola is a different story - it will need a grass herbicide plus fungicide, insecticide and foliar boron. A lot of work to do ahead, but I feel really happy about that. My part of the country is not occupied and we take it as a great benefit and gratuity being able to farm and grow crops for the country when the rest of it is fighting hard with russian barbarians. There are different estimates but one of them says Ukraine will not be able to plant 25-30% of its land this year.
As you all know, Ukrainian Military Forces forced russians leave Kyiv, Chernigiv and Sumy area (the Northern part of the country). The picture we`ve seen in Bucha and other suburbs of Kyiv shocked all of the world. Hundreds of peaceful people tortured, raped, murdered.... Women and children.... It`s a pain inside the soul of each of us. The feeling that the part of you have been destroyed forever. My parents lived just 5 miles from there. They left on 9th of March but if they stayed longer they would have been killed too. Their property is fully destroyed but they are alive and stay safe in my house, this what is really important these days. We`ll never forget and admit what happened. It will be the duty of each of us to get them chased and killed for a payback. This is a cruel war and there is no place for mercy left for the enemy. I`m afraid, Mariupol is the next big city where the massive war crime by russians is happening these days. Yesterday, a russian missile hit the railroad station in Kramatorsk where thousand of people were waiting to get evacuated to the safer places to the north. 50 killed including 5 children and hundreds injured. This is all about the ****ing russian world. People who support this are bastards, they are in the same boat with russian criminals.
From military standpoint, the current situation is that russian troops retreated from the North and currently are regrouping and reinforcing with reserves and equipment. As long as they failed at the North and lost up to 25% of their military force, their next goal is to attack the Donbass region. Putin replaced the general commander of the russian crowd of military criminals. The intelligence reports they are likely to repeat the offensive at Kharkiv. If they succeed, surely the will try again to capture Kyiv. However, I don`t believe they have a chance for success. Russian troops are demotivated and scared. They are more likely marauders but not military proffessionals. The fresh reserve meat coming to fulfill the russian troops is even more scared and has near zero training. On the contrary, Ukrainian Forces and the society in general are highly motivated and mobilised, the fighting spirit is at the top notch ever. The same time, Ukrainians get more and more of high precision weapons from all over the world. I have to say the special THANK YOU to the US Senate that approved the bill on lend-lease for arms to Ukraine. That was done in WW2 to help beat Hitler and it really worked then. The history goes by cycles and now is the time for such a historical decision. I`m sure that will help put an end to the russian aggression and will save thousands of lives of Ukrainians.

Slava Ukrayini, Glory to Ukraine!
Heroyam Slava, Glory to Heroes!

Slava natsii, Glory to the Nation!
Smert` vorogam, Death to enemies!

Ukrayina ponad use, Ukraine above all!
These are the Ukrainan slogans we use to keep up the fighting spirit at high. It means there is no chance for russians orcs to put Ukraine at knees unless they kill all of us. But again - it won`t happen, much to the dismay of the russian fan club!

Thank you for your post.
To those that think Ukrainians want others to fight this war, they are wrong. What the Ukrainians want and are grateful for are arms. They are saying “you provide the arms, we will fight”.

 

[ljk]

What happened to their own arms?

 

[Tombs]

Thank you for your post.
To those that think Ukrainians want others to fight this war, they are wrong. What the Ukrainians want and are grateful for are arms. They are saying “you provide the arms, we will fight”.

And what results in more suffering for Ukrainians? If they're willing to fight to the last man, woman, and child, isn't arming them just creating more suffering?

Wouldn't it be better for the people if they were negotiating a peace treaty right now?

I don't see them launching a massive land-war counter invasion of Russia and taking the country over. So I'm not exactly sure what the point of prolonging the war is, except for western powers to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to deplete Russian resources.

Because from where I'm sitting, that's all that it appears the west is doing. Encouraging Ukraine into suicidal behavior so that they'll fight the war the west doesn't want to.

 

[rooster]

Trump was impeached because of a phone call to the same Ukraine.

Trump was impeached for asking Ukraine for dirt on the Biden crime family and threatening to withhold “aid” (weapons) if he didn’t get it.

That should tell you all you need to know about where the swamp stands on this conflict.

 

[gvbcraig]

And what results in more suffering for Ukrainians? If they're willing to fight to the last man, woman, and child, isn't arming them just creating more suffering?

Wouldn't it be better for the people if they were negotiating a peace treaty right now?

I don't see them launching a massive land-war counter invasion of Russia and taking the country over. So I'm not exactly sure what the point of prolonging the war is, except for western powers to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to deplete Russian resources.

Because from where I'm sitting, that's all that it appears the west is doing. Encouraging Ukraine into suicidal behavior so that they'll fight the war the west doesn't want to.

Counter invasion would result in nuclear option for Putin. Peace negotiations would be equivalent to the Hitler / Chamberlain appeasement. The simple solution is up to Putin to pull out of the Ukraine, but we all know that will not happen.

So Ukraine‘s only choice is to fight for their land, and they are willing to do that. If the Russians are willing to kill civilians, the people of Ukraine have no choice, they will be killed if they surrender or they will be killed defending their land.

 

[Tombs]

Counter invasion would result in nuclear option for Putin. Peace negotiations would be equivalent to the Hitler / Chamberlain appeasement. The simple solution is up to Putin to pull out of the Ukraine, but we all know that will not happen.

So Ukraine‘s only choice is to fight for their land, and they are willing to do that. If the Russians are willing to kill civilians, the people of Ukraine have no choice, they will be killed if they surrender or they will be killed defending their land.

Is Russia slaughtering Ukrainians in Crimea currently?

I'm not sure I believe that Russia would senselessly exterminate Ukrainians if a peace treaty was made.

 

[jamil]

Is Russia slaughtering Ukrainians in Crimea currently?

I'm not sure I believe that Russia would senselessly exterminate Ukrainians if a peace treaty was made.

Since you’re using Crimea as an example of outcomes, are you saying these peace negotiations ending up with Russia controlling Ukraine is workable?

 

[Tombs]

Since you’re using Crimea as an example of outcomes, are you saying these peace negotiations ending up with Russia controlling Ukraine is workable?

I've not seen any terms that include ownership/control of Ukraine beyond demanding a constitutional amendment to remain a neutral state.

They've even said they wouldn't mind if Kyiv joined the EU, as long as it stays out of NATO.

It appears they want Luhansk and Donetsk as well.

Overall, I don't see the loss of life as worth it. If Ukraine was planning on taking over Russia in some massive counter offensive, and had the means... Things might be different. Otherwise, what is the strategic objective? Make the country that was fine with sacrificing 60+million of their own people for ideological reasons, bleed enough to start caring?

It's a lose/lose situation, but one outcome costs a lot less lives.

I also feel that the west is only supporting Ukraine as a means to hurt Russia, with Ukrainian lives being the collateral damage.

 

[gvbcraig]

The Russian definition of Peace = IT'S A RUSSIAN WORLD. The attached clip is from the Ukrainian point of view, but it gives the westerners an idea of what Russia thinks of anyone who is not Russian, they are all Nazi's, and not peace loving people like the Russians. Those that lived under Soviet occupation understand this and that is why they are fighting so hard, and others are supplying the weapons, if Ukraine becomes part of the "Russian World" then the Nazi countries of Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Czechoslovakia are next.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I've not seen any terms that include ownership/control of Ukraine beyond demanding a constitutional amendment to remain a neutral state.

They've even said they wouldn't mind if Kyiv joined the EU, as long as it stays out of NATO.

It appears they want Luhansk and Donetsk as well.

Overall, I don't see the loss of life as worth it. If Ukraine was planning on taking over Russia in some massive counter offensive, and had the means... Things might be different. Otherwise, what is the strategic objective? Make the country that was fine with sacrificing 60+million of their own people for ideological reasons, bleed enough to start caring?

It's a lose/lose situation, but one outcome costs a lot less lives.

I also feel that the west is only supporting Ukraine as a means to hurt Russia, with Ukrainian lives being the collateral damage.

What would be your opinion if let's say Mexico invaded the SW US? Should we negotiate a peace treaty where they get part of our country because it costs less lives?

 

[gvbcraig]

More Ukrainian propaganda to counter the Russian propaganda.
He is a spokesman for the Ukrainian military, some good first had information.

 

[wagyu52]

Is Russia slaughtering Ukrainians in Crimea currently?

I'm not sure I believe that Russia would senselessly exterminate Ukrainians if a peace treaty was made.

Wait, Putin said the people in Crimea are Russians.

So you believe Putin wants peace after he invaded. What has changed? What was the purpose of the invasion, wasn’t it to dislodge the separatists in Kiev.

 

[BJHay]

IMO it is to turn attention away from confronting China economically and strategically. The conflict seems designed to reinstate Russia as the perceived #1 danger to America and the world and deflect attention from the real danger

You make a good point but If that were the case it failed miserably. Instead of being seen as our #1 danger the Russian military put on a S***show for the world do watch. Their military failed to supply or coordinate troop movements, their pilots are poorly trained, seven generals have been killed (so far) and a lack of precision munitions exposed. The real question is why did the US overestimate Russian military strength in the past?

We're seeing EU countries (finally) step up and increase military spending to deal with Russia in the future and two more countries may join NATO soon. This is going to leave the EU much less dependent on the US for protection in the future and allow our military to focus on Asia.

What used to be considered three 'super powers' is now two.