Why We Really Miss - Revisited

[wildcatfan.62]

Was geeking out on YouTube and watched a video from United Defense Tactical called Handgun Fundamentals that had a tip for new shooters to verbalized "squeeze, squeeze squeeze" as a way to help eliminate a finch and help with a clean break. I'm going to try this technique this weekend. Good training by someone like Coach can help but I think I need to keep working a reinforcing my shooting since he can't always be standing beside me teaching. That perfect string when the buzzer goes off is like the Holy Grail -I know it's out there somewhere.

 

[Coach]

As has been discussed here and in the video, but like rvb I fear people will focus on the wrong that Latham said. I fear folks will not here the "until" part of his phrase. I have stood behind a lot of new shooters. I have seen people not be able to get their hits because they did not align the sights right. They did not because for some reason they did not understand how to do it. Even after a great explanation and saying they understood.

I have seen more people unable to press the trigger straight to the rear. This can take awhile to get across and for them to be able to do. Particularly if they are afraid of the gun. Many people are afraid of the gun. Fear is the father of the flinch.

Release the trigger immediately on the breaking of the shot is another cause of misses.

All three of these things are reasons for misses and all three must be dealt with.

I question how many new shooters Rob Latham really teaches. How many people does he have to show magazines and bullets and how they go together and how the magazine goes into the gun and how many folks does he have to talk off the ledge because of other guns going off around them? How does a shooter like that end up with World Champion as their first instructor? I have my doubts that it is very many.

I think his video is worthwhile in informing us about our shooting and in other cases about our teaching. However, my teaching experience does not mirror what he is describing about hitting the target at five yards and about pressing the trigger well right out of the gate.

 

[miguel]

I am not as skilled or experienced as 90% of the guys in this thread, but this video below is the one that got me over the hump as far as improving my aim with a pistol.

When JM simply said use the minimum it takes to get a repeatable shot, bring it up to your dominant eye instead of shrugging shoulders, twisting head, raising your left hip, etc. it just kind of made sense and I stopped putting 2/3 of my shots between 6 and 9 o'clock. (or missing at distance...)

[video=youtube;ChSazF41q-s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s[/video]

 

[Twangbanger]

As has been discussed here and in the video, but like rvb I fear people will focus on the wrong that Latham said. I fear folks will not here the "until" part of his phrase. I have stood behind a lot of new shooters. I have seen people not be able to get their hits because they did not align the sights right. They did not because for some reason they did not understand how to do it. Even after a great explanation and saying they understood.

I have seen more people unable to press the trigger straight to the rear. This can take awhile to get across and for them to be able to do. Particularly if they are afraid of the gun. Many people are afraid of the gun. Fear is the father of the flinch.

Release the trigger immediately on the breaking of the shot is another cause of misses.

All three of these things are reasons for misses and all three must be dealt with.

I question how many new shooters Rob Latham really teaches. How many people does he have to show magazines and bullets and how they go together and how the magazine goes into the gun and how many folks does he have to talk off the ledge because of other guns going off around them? How does a shooter like that end up with World Champion as their first instructor? I have my doubts that it is very many.

I think his video is worthwhile in informing us about our shooting and in other cases about our teaching. However, my teaching experience does not mirror what he is describing about hitting the target at five yards and about pressing the trigger well right out of the gate.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm a student of yours who has high regard for your teaching ability, and must be because I'm signed up with you again for this month! But I'm going to disagree somewhat about the benefit of the video, and the approach when dealing with true beginners. I have not taught as many people as you, or been in USPSA for 20 years, but some of what that video is saying really resonates with me in what I've seen in my own shooting, and teaching a modest amount of others.

I think the keys to this video, are in what he is saying starting at 1:00, and again at 4:00. First off, he's saying the _first_ (not "only") thing you need to do is cultivate the ability to make the gun go off smoothly without moving it, and says he demonstrates this beginning at very close range and/or with dry fire. I think that's spot-on.

To choose an anecdotal data point, I was working with someone recently whom he and his wife are new to shooting (<1 year), and are not confident signing up for classes (just don't like the group thing). They show up with lasers on all their guns. Big, big fans of the laser (sometimes I wish that had never been invented!). They are both "aiming" fairly well, relative to what you would call aiming with that kind of device. They're spending a lot of time lining that thing up, and hitting the bullseye that they intended to, and in the case of the husband, he's putting all his shots within a pretty decent group! So I was reasonably ok with what they were doing. But in the course of trying each others' guns, I shot the husband's laser-equipped Sig, cut the group size about in half...but...my shots landed in a cluster 6 inches above his, when using the laser (disclosure, I'm a 20+ year experienced bullseye competitor and know I was breaking them all very clean). I was conflicted. He had a consistent 6 to 8 inch downward flinch. They were achieving their "goal," and he was consistent enough in what he was doing that he had adjusted his laser to match where his hand was throwing the shots. Now I don't think anybody could say these folks are not spending a good amount of attention on aiming. He just was not catching the instant of the shot. I tried to explain the limitations inherent with a laser, that some of them seem to come loose easily, and the difficulty of seeing what that thing is doing at the moment the shot breaks, and the need to gravitate back toward using the sights if possible (but, that if they were married to the laser, it could still have some benefits for them if they were willing to really work on doing some dry-fire at home).

But what I couldn't get away from, was that this guy could put pretty much all his shots on the bullseye with that laser (at that moment, anyway), even though he was jerking them all consistently 6 or 8 inches low. He just wasn't seeing it at the moment the shot broke. I'm sure using the laser was contributing to that. (And from the number of those things I see blinking away downrange at places like Parabellum and Point Blank, in the hands of obvious newbies, he is probably not alone).

Now, I don't want to draw too many conclusions from one anecdotal data point. But it still stuck with me. How do you teach someone like that to "fix" what they're doing, solely off of trying to visually catch what is happening at the exact moment the sight is lifting (keeping in mind that these people are not, and probably never will be, grandmaster USPSA competitors like RVB?). As you say, people are often afraid of the gun (I could tell this guy's wife definitely was). I try to talk to them about dryfire, but they obviously don't see the benefit in the idea, and I don't want to hammer them on it. And I also know that when that "fear" aspect is involved, people "do things" when firing live ammo that they don't do when dry firing - because that fear aspect is not present. These are beginners in the truest sense. The sight-lifting stuff is fairly advanced stuff as far as marksmanship is concerned. Some may be able to handle that right off as beginners, but I doubt it's anything near a majority.

So when dealing with true beginners, that is where I think Rob's technique of having people start off just breaking the trigger, not even looking at the sights or target or using ammo, has benefit (the part around 1:00 or so, where he talks about not letting the process of aiming mentally interfere with breaking the shot). He's talking about how beginners cannot focus on too many things at one time, and how trying to teach aming and trigger simultaneously can be a problem. If they can handle "dry fire" in the sense that we mean it, and add in the visual focus on keeping the sight still, so much the better...but you cannot assume all or even most can do that, and/or transfer it over to live fire.

I think the next big point comes in the first 20 seconds of the video - then again about 4:00. Honestly: how many instructors start off the exact way he describes (what he calls "that slow fire sxxt," lol)...align the sights, squeeze the trigger, pin the trigger to the rear, etc. In my experience, that is most instructors, if not almost all. You get the "clear sight - fuzzy bullseye" thing, or the "pie zone" diagram, everybody stands around and squeezes slowly while watching the sights...what are the results of this? Is there a better way? Most if not all these people are training to learn to defend themselves. When they are shooting for real, under pressure, fast & close, how much is that going to mirror the kind of shooting they're learning in their typical "basic pistol" course? Shooting fast is absolutely _not_ the same as shooting slow, mechanically and fundamentally, as Rob describes in the video. So why not start off learning to operate the trigger the way they're going to do it under pressure, anyway, and learning to do it without disturbing the gun? Then if they need to learn slow-fire precision, later, they can go back and pick that up. I know that is backwards to how we "gun guys" usually think (most of us learned by trying to pick the heads off squirrels with a .22 rifle...totally different skill). But I think the idea has some merit. Maybe the typical "defensive" student is better off learning to be solid at speed, first, then working on slow precision later, to the extent that they need to know that. It's a different situation and group of people, but I've seen a fair amount of USPSA shooters who started off with speed, and had to learn precision later, but they do well...much better than others (like me) who learned precision first, and struggle to pick up speed. I'm sure we can think of folks in that latter category we've seen at matches, who are going to really struggle at ever being good, unless they really get the lead out and learn to pick up speed (and I very well may resemble that!).

Rambling thoughts, and this is not all (or even mostly) aimed at you, Coach. But it's the kind of good discussion I was hoping would come from posting material like the video. So thanks for responding, I hope this is taken in the spirit that it is offered, and I'll see you in class...

 

[Jackson]

I don't want to quote it because it's so long... but how do you teach someone to press the trigger without moving the gun if they don't have a visual reference for the movement? (Maybe I need to rewatch the video.) If you're actually watching the front sight, that's how you know the gun is moving.

 

[Twangbanger]

I don't want to quote it because it's so long... but how do you teach someone to press the trigger without moving the gun if they don't have a visual reference for the movement? (Maybe I need to rewatch the video.) If you're actually watching the front sight, that's how you know the gun is moving.

It is not a "don't use the sights" video (the sights obviously come into play, and he says that). But should sights be the first thing you teach? I took it as, we might need to re-think the school of thought that SIGHTS is the first and foremost, and ultimately the only, thing you really need, because they tell you everything you need to know. In a sense, yes, that's true. But if that really worked, why are so many people unable to do it? There is a "learning-feedback loop" hidden in that method that "we" understand, but the beginner may not. It's a matter of emphasis, and I think we are bound to probably go in circles on it. But it's thought-provoking.

 

[gregr]

Not focusing on the front sight rather than the target is a common mistake.

 

[rvb]

I don't teach that slow fire "squeeeeeeze" bull**** to newbs, and I usually have them tearing up the center in no time. That whole "let the shot surprise you" nonsense will, IMO, set up a new shooter for failure (due to fear/flinch) every time. As TGO said, It's all about starting with a good trigger press. I teach it as more of a mechanical action.... Pulling the trigger through its range of motion smoothly/completely, and just letting the gun go off and recoil. I have them shoot the gun a few times with their eyes closed even to get a feel that the recoil is nothing to fear. That traditional stuff about stopping on the sear and sloooowly adding pressure until the gun fires will induce a flinch in newbs almost every time. I teach it the same way I shoot, just pull the trigger straight through with out stopping.

Last year when I took my son to the range for his first shots ever, I put my finger on top of his as we dryfired it together and I said pull it straight back, smoothly, like this. And he hit the x ring on his first shot.

As as for the newbs not seeing the laser dip in flinch, did you try the ball/dummy drill? I think it gets way over emphasized, but there's a situation you could have demonstrated what they were doing. I've also done it in reverse.... A mag full of dummies with a couple live rounds mixed in, they get used to dry firing and suddntly it goes off with a successful hit. Pulling the trigger for the shooter can help in those situations too, so they can see what the gun can do if their flinch is removed. I have seen folks who miss very consistently, And I've seen them get very frustrated as they improve and suddenly sometimes they hit and other times they don't (when they occasionally do it right).

-rvb

 

[Twangbanger]

I don't teach that slow fire "squeeeeeeze" bull**** to newbs, and I usually have them tearing up the center in no time. That whole "let the shot surprise you" nonsense will, IMO, set up a new shooter for failure (due to fear/flinch) every time. As TGO said, It's all about starting with a good trigger press. I teach it as more of a mechanical action.... Pulling the trigger through its range of motion smoothly/completely, and just letting the gun go off and recoil. I have them shoot the gun a few times with their eyes closed even to get a feel that the recoil is nothing to fear. That traditional stuff about stopping on the sear and sloooowly adding pressure until the gun fires will induce a flinch in newbs almost every time. I teach it the same way I shoot, just pull the trigger straight through with out stopping.

Last year when I took my son to the range for his first shots ever, I put my finger on top of his as we dryfired it together and I said pull it straight back, smoothly, like this. And he hit the x ring on his first shot.

As as for the newbs not seeing the laser dip in flinch, did you try the ball/dummy drill? I think it gets way over emphasized, but there's a situation you could have demonstrated what they were doing. I've also done it in reverse.... A mag full of dummies with a couple live rounds mixed in, they get used to dry firing and suddntly it goes off with a successful hit. Pulling the trigger for the shooter can help in those situations too, so they can see what the gun can do if their flinch is removed. I have seen folks who miss very consistently, And I've seen them get very frustrated as they improve and suddenly sometimes they hit and other times they don't (when they occasionally do it right).

-rvb

I have tried the eyes-closed thing, standing up real close to the berm with people who are afraid of the gun. I like the idea and have even tried it myself, with 5 shot strings (to work through things that happen when I'm running the gun fast). I have found with other people, they can only fire one shot at a time, setting it up visually before executing it (otherwise, it feels weird, like you're doing something "wrong" or unsafe). I get that. (I don't want to seem like more of a loon than I already do!).

Interestingly, there is a Robert J. Leatham who has been shooting Camp Perry the past several years. He usually finishes down in the 2300s, but if it's the same guy, you have to respect a top champion who is willing to cross over into other disciplines that aren't their "thing." If he shows up at Atterbury next year, I would love to have the chance to meet him and discuss this, because this stuff is fascinating to me. Learning to execute trigger press one-handed with a dot sight is the hardest thing I have ever encountered in my shooting life, with any kind of gun. (One-handed classifiers when shooting Carry Optics must be real fun).

 

[Coach]

If the video resonates and works then it does. I see it as sensational marketing in some ways. TGO can shoot without a doubt. He has been there and done that. I do not doubt his knowledge or abilities.

But when he talks about teaching new shooters I have serious doubts. Why would he subject himself to that? I am just not convinced he is taking brand new shooters out and teaching them from the ground up. What does a 15 time national champion charge a newbie to show them which end of the gun the bullets come out? So I am a little skeptical that he has a lot of experience doing it. I could be totally wrong. It has happened before.

Almost everything about shooting a pistol is unnatural or counter intuitive. Some examples:

How many things do you do in life that involve isolating your index finger and moving it without moving any other fingers on that hand?
The training I have had and my first hand experience backs it up. People are hardwired to look at the threat and the target not the front sight.
Everyone wants to squeeze hard with the gun hand.
People want to see the bullet strike the target and especially if it is reactive in nature.
People are not patient and that hurts performance during the dwell time of the shot.
People want to go fast and a speed focus hurts performance.
Tension in the body is a constant battle.
Then on top of all of those things weather conditions, health, strength, confidence and ability to focus come into the equation just like in everything else.

Shooting well is not easy.

People look for the magic trick, hardware solutions, pixie dust or some such thing. To get hits it comes down to align the sights, and press the trigger straight to the rear, while holding the sights on the target.

Lasers are largely a crutch.

 

[natdscott]

Shooting well is not easy.

Chuckles... and there be the quote of the week, ladies and gents.

Sure isn't, and anybody that assumes it will be or that they are preordained to be good at it is destined instead to fall flat on their face.

Shooting well takes practice and training, and those two are not the same thing.

-Nate

 

[rvb]

Interestingly, there is a Robert J. Leatham who has been shooting Camp Perry the past several years.

He usually shoots the national match at perry... SAI builds him something nice.... I know for a while it was a M1A I think in .243.

-rvb

 

[natdscott]

And Rob is the kind of guy who can shoot anything "pretty okay".

-Nate

 

[Twangbanger]

He usually shoots the national match at perry... SAI builds him something nice.... I know for a while it was a M1A I think in .243.

-rvb

That is even cooler! I guess when you're sponsored, you don't care about barrel life...

I meant to say, Camp Perry "Pistol." It does go to show you that "shooting well is not easy," when switching to a related discipline with the same type of gun places 100~200 people above a major sponsored shooter in the results list.

 

[Twangbanger]

*

 

[Tactically Fat]

Me too!

This has me thinking about Rob Pincus "Extend, touch, press" method of teaching new shooters. It's not point shooting per se, but it doesn't stress using the sights, just naturally extending the gun toward the target. This could work well when teaching new shooters using Leatham's ideas.

One of my brothers-in-law fancies himself a "trainer" who has respect for Pincus...but none for Leatham. It's frustratingly hilarious.

If I ever have another chance to introduce someone to shooting, I want to remember to grab some electrical or medical tape and just tape over the sights completely.

 

[rhino]

One of my brothers-in-law fancies himself a "trainer" who has respect for Pincus...but none for Leatham. It's frustratingly hilarious.

If I ever have another chance to introduce someone to shooting, I want to remember to grab some electrical or medical tape and just tape over the sights completely.

You'll have to name names (at least in private). I must know!

 

[rhino]

With the idea of maintaining alignment of the gun through the trigger press and until the bullet leaves the muzzle, I have been observing my own marksmanship in matches. As my ability to shoot Sigs improves, I found a disturbing trend that I am hitting lower than where I believe I am aiming on a consistent basis. On Sunday, I noticed that I was getting two hits on most targets pretty close together, but not always where I believed I was aiming. Then I realized something: I'm seeing my front sight because I'm shooting without my bifocals (just polarized tinted safety glasses), but the targets past a few yards get increasingly blurry and I'm not always pointing the gun at the right part of the target (I prefer to aim at the upper 1/3 of the A zone on an IPSC metric target) when It's fuzzy.

In addition, I think on a significant number of my shots, I'm still pushing downward too much when I know the gun is going to go off. Most of the shots where I hit other than where I intended were low, including missing my first two shots on the first of three steel plates.

Conversely, I'm hitting high when I shoot my 9mm 1911s.

 

[natdscott]

No chance it is a sight regulation issue?

I am ignorant here, rhino, so please bear with me... how far are you talking about when you are seeing the low shots?

I ask because you have two different pistol platforms, and USING the sights, you are hitting two different places + a vision component.

It truly could be just different dynamics of the pistols in recoil and even aiming. Were you always a 1911 guy before?


-Nate

 

[rhino]

No chance it is a sight regulation issue?

I am ignorant here, rhino, so please bear with me... how far are you talking about when you are seeing the low shots?

I ask because you have two different pistol platforms, and USING the sights, you are hitting two different places + a vision component.

It truly could be just different dynamics of the pistols in recoil and even aiming. Were you always a 1911 guy before?


-Nate

Hi, Nate:

I'm seeing the deviation at 5-7 yards. It's with three different Sig P226s and two different 9mm 1911s (one of which has adjustable sights).

Yes, I "grew up" from the age of 29 onward as a 1911-pattern guy. For the last few years I tried to shoot and carry Glocks, which worked okay as long as I had time to practice regularly to overcome the difficulties I have shooting them well. I don't have that kind of time or interest anymore, so I switched to the Sigs.

Here's the thing: I didn't have these issues when I first started shooting the Sigs. I've developed something that is making me push them low in the last couple of months.

Shooting high with the 1911s is brand new, but I hadn't shot them in a quite a while.

I probably need to have someone watch/video me shoot groups for a while and throw some dummy rounds into my mags to see what happens.

On the bright side, my ability to work the double-action trigger has improved dramatically. I'm starting to be able to do it reasonably well without going slooooowwwwwwllllyyyy.