Why We Really Miss - Revisited

[rvb]

I suspect you know the answer. You know the theory behind the techniques. Now it'll take that P word you hate.
Changing gun types changes our index, our NPA. If you aren't REALLY watching the sights as the shot breaks, you'll revert to your index (the "muscle memory" piece of our grip). glocks tend to point high for most people, so it's not unreasonable to think that in comparison, the sig will point a little lower. watch those sites!

I remember when I first started shooting glocks in production... oh so many people asked whether I struggled with the grip angle and the gun naturally pointing high. I was kind of surprised, because no, I never noticed it. I drove the sites, vs relying on index. so I tried some eyes-closed dryfire draws, and sure enough, it was pointing high...

-rvb

 

[rhino]

I suspect you know the answer. You know the theory behind the techniques. Now it'll take that P word you hate.
Changing gun types changes our index, our NPA. If you aren't REALLY watching the sights as the shot breaks, you'll revert to your index (the "muscle memory" piece of our grip). glocks tend to point high for most people, so it's not unreasonable to think that in comparison, the sig will point a little lower. watch those sites!

I remember when I first started shooting glocks in production... oh so many people asked whether I struggled with the grip angle and the gun naturally pointing high. I was kind of surprised, because no, I never noticed it. I drove the sites, vs relying on index. so I tried some eyes-closed dryfire draws, and sure enough, it was pointing high...

-rvb

I'm leaning that direction, but I shot some groups last Friday and it was happening when I was purposely watching the front sight lift and settle. The low hits with the Sig weren't as bad, but the high hits with the 1911 was.

 

[rhino]

My random youtubing led me to this gem about trigger control (and the importance of grip). I've heard of the company, but I was not previously familiar with the teacher in the video. I recommend watching!

[video=youtube;QgFFdH7Vs9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgFFdH7Vs9Y[/video]

Here is the same guy talking about grip. I haven't reviewed these yet, but since his message in the trigger control video leads to grip, I thought I would include them here:

[video=youtube;MhS-eWeay40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhS-eWeay40[/video]
[video=youtube;5-UUVQdGB3s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUVQdGB3s[/video]

 

[cedartop]

I have actually learned a lot from Aron's videos lately, especially his low light stuff. I may try to train with him this year. The downside is I have been very tempted to buy an Agency Arms Glock.

 

[rhino]

I have actually learned a lot from Aron's videos lately, especially his low light stuff. I may try to train with him this year. The downside is I have been very tempted to buy an Agency Arms Glock.

He is clearly very good at articulating his thoughts. I think training with him would be a very good experience.

Plus, you won't have to bite your tongue and endure the "grip doesn't matter" nonsense because he won't be saying it!

 

[Coach]

Do you think he mis-spoke on the 60-40 comment or he is/was actually meaning to do 60% with the gun hand? I like his overall attitude about grip.

His trigger reset anticipation technique seems like a method for slapping the trigger well, which is a good thing but I don't see it as that different or revolutionary. He is well spoken and bring plenty to the table to think about.

I have not watched the third one yet. The 39 minutes was too much for the time I had available.

I also like the idea of a few dry fire draws with the clothes you are wearing that morning.

 

[cedartop]

Do you think he mis-spoke on the 60-40 comment or he is/was actually meaning to do 60% with the gun hand? I like his overall attitude about grip.

Odd, the first couple times I watched it, my mind just applied it the other way because that is what I used to hear a lot, 60/40 in favor of support hand. Not sure which way he meant.

His trigger reset anticipation technique seems like a method for slapping the trigger well, which is a good thing but I don't see it as that different or revolutionary. He is well spoken and bring plenty to the table to think about.

Though he explains it a bit differently, I first heard of not using the reset from Ernest Langdon and have since adopted it, though I actually used to teach it the pin the trigger through recoil then reset way. It way not seem a lot different in theory, but in practice I think it is.

I have not watched the third one yet. The 39 minutes was too much for the time I had available.

I also like the idea of a few dry fire draws with the clothes you are wearing that morning.

My responses in bold.

 

[rhino]

Do you think he mis-spoke on the 60-40 comment or he is/was actually meaning to do 60% with the gun hand? I like his overall attitude about grip.

His trigger reset anticipation technique seems like a method for slapping the trigger well, which is a good thing but I don't see it as that different or revolutionary. He is well spoken and bring plenty to the table to think about.

I have not watched the third one yet. The 39 minutes was too much for the time I had available.

I also like the idea of a few dry fire draws with the clothes you are wearing that morning.

I'll have to go back and listen again. Like cedartop, I think I heard what I was expecting to hear.

 

[Coach]

I think the new shooters should ride the reset until they can do that successfully. Then set to work about being able to slap the trigger well. If you watch new shooters going to work slapping the trigger is too soft a word for what many of them do. Stopping the trigger finger at the right spot is advanced work. Getting the newer person to slap the trigger well is like teaching bike tricks before taking the training wheels off.

Once someone has the fundamentals under control slapping the trigger has it place and time.

 

[cedartop]

I think the new shooters should ride the reset until they can do that successfully. Then set to work about being able to slap the trigger well. If you watch new shooters going to work slapping the trigger is too soft a word for what many of them do. Stopping the trigger finger at the right spot is advanced work. Getting the newer person to slap the trigger well is like teaching bike tricks before taking the training wheels off.

Once someone has the fundamentals under control slapping the trigger has it place and time.

That is why I mentioned they explain it differently. Ernest definitely doesn't call it slapping the trigger, and really it isn't. As Ernest explains it, and I have witnessed, unfortunately when you teach people to pin the trigger to the rear and then let it out after recoil recovery, they tend to use the reset as the gas pedal, no the sights.

[video=youtube;9qbCSpcrOsw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qbCSpcrOsw[/video]

[video=youtube;j7ahDcWjFZI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ahDcWjFZI[/video]

 

[rhino]

The original use of the term "slapping the trigger" just meant that at some point, your finger left contact with the front of the trigger to allow the trigger to reset fully and as quickly as possible. With a 1911 with a light trigger, it makes a big difference since the leg on the sear spring that resets the trigger is puny by intent.

It's been demonized as some kind bad thing to do by people who either can't do it well or who don't understand what it really means (or both). When someone attributes marksmanship issues to "slapping the trigger," what they really mean is that "after your finger is in contact with the trigger again, you're allowing the gun to move out of alignment with your target before you press the trigger enough for the gun to discharge and allow the bullet to exit the barrel." Unfortunately, they may not realize the real problem and are just repeating dogmatically and incorrectly that slapping the trigger is inherently bad.

 

[natdscott]

Slapping the trigger on accurate rifles is almost assuredly going to cause the groups to be larger than they could have been otherwise.

100% truth, even with triggers in the grams with no backstop.

-Nate

 

[Twangbanger]

Slapping the trigger on accurate rifles is almost assuredly going to cause the groups to be larger than they could have been otherwise...

100% truth, even with triggers in the grams with no backstop.​

..

​

Thank you, Nate, for expressing another viewpoint. The precision shooting world does still exist, out there, we just forget that sometimes. And that observation absolutely follows for 3.5 pound triggers, shooting things that are closer and bigger.

The original use of the term "slapping the trigger" just meant that at some point, your finger left contact with the front of the trigger to allow the trigger to reset fully and as quickly as possible. With a 1911 with a light trigger, it makes a big difference since the leg on the sear spring that resets the trigger is puny by intent.

It's been demonized as some kind bad thing to do by people who either can't do it well or who don't understand what it really means (or both). When someone attributes marksmanship issues to "slapping the trigger," what they really mean is that "after your finger is in contact with the trigger again, you're allowing the gun to move out of alignment with your target before you press the trigger enough for the gun to discharge and allow the bullet to exit the barrel." Unfortunately, they may not realize the real problem and are just repeating dogmatically and incorrectly that slapping the trigger is inherently bad.

I think this is spot-on for defensive shooting, but let's keep in mind not everybody uses a handgun for the same thing. There is a level of precision where slapping is no longer the right answer, even if you're doing a good job of not "flinching" the gun with your hand while you do it. I would tend to gravitate more to Coach's statement or Brian Enos' Practical shooting tome, seeing handgun shooting as a continuum of precision where different levels are used for different tasks. If you are taking a shot at a deer, for example, you most often do not want to be slapping anything. There are places where a surprise-squeeze technique, executed fairly quick as discussed by Cooper, is the right thing. Rob Leatham shoots Camp Perry, but mostly does not register scores out of Sharpshooter class, because that kind of shooting takes a different type of trigger control where slapping does. not. work...no matter how good you are at it. (I unfortunately often shoot the same kind of scores when using a dot sight, because I have not learned to manage that much readily-observable movement on a 3 inch target at 25 yards, but I'm working on it).

Again, most people do not do that type of handgun shooting much, so I think learning to slap well meets most of the needs of most shooters most of the time (people interested in defensive shooting). We just do not want to start an "orthodoxy" here, to the exclusion of all else.

 

[rhino]

Slapping the trigger on accurate rifles is almost assuredly going to cause the groups to be larger than they could have been otherwise.

100% truth, even with triggers in the grams with no backstop.

-Nate

And that's why it's not an appropriate technique for precision shooting when you have the luxury of time, whether it's rifles or pistols. It's entirely appropriate for lesser marksmanship challenges when time is in critically short supply.

 

[rhino]

​

I think this is spot-on for defensive shooting, but let's keep in mind not everybody uses a handgun for the same thing. There is a level of precision where slapping is no longer the right answer, even if you're doing a good job of not "flinching" the gun with your hand while you do it. I would tend to gravitate more to Coach's statement or Brian Enos' Practical shooting tome, seeing handgun shooting as a continuum of precision where different levels are used for different tasks. If you are taking a shot at a deer, for example, you most often do not want to be slapping anything. There are places where a surprise-squeeze technique, executed fairly quick as discussed by Cooper, is the right thing. Rob Leatham shoots Camp Perry, but mostly does not register scores out of Sharpshooter class, because that kind of shooting takes a different type of trigger control where slapping does. not. work...no matter how good you are at it. (I unfortunately often shoot the same kind of scores when using a dot sight, because I have not learned to manage that much readily-observable movement on a 3 inch target at 25 yards, but I'm working on it).

Again, most people do not do that type of handgun shooting much, so I think learning to slap well meets most of the needs of most shooters most of the time (people interested in defensive shooting). We just do not want to start an "orthodoxy" here, to the exclusion of all else.

I don't disagree that slapping the trigger is not appropriate for all shooting tasks (but I didn't imply it was either). What I will say is that its merit or lack thereof is not inherently determined by the application, but rather by the difficulty of the shot(s) and how much time is available. Putting rounds through the inner corner of the eye of some asswipe with a knife to your kid's throat is not a time for trigger slapping (and firing more than one round in that scenario may be appropriate). Putting half a dozen rounds into a fist-sized group in the upper, center chest of a guy pointing an AK at would be an appropriate application for doing it (correctly).

If you have essentially unlimited time to break shots, what benefit would be derived from trigger slapping? You have no need for the trigger to reset quickly, so why would anyone try it? Bullseye shooting.

For what it's worth, if you did video of Rob Leatham's finger during a bullseye match, I doubt if you'll see his finger leaving contact with the trigger to allow it to reset quickly. The same is true for NRA Action Pistol (Bianchi Cup), which does require a significant level of accuracy, less than bullseye, but the time limits are far less forgiving.

 

[bwframe]

2017 was supposed to be my trigger control year. Hmm, maybe 2018?

 

[natdscott]

And that's why it's not an appropriate technique for precision shooting when you have the luxury of time, whether it's rifles or pistols. It's entirely appropriate for lesser marksmanship challenges when time is in critically short supply.

I get you, rhino. I think maybe sometimes I get mis-understood for being only a "precision" minded shooter, when that is very much not the case, nor was it really my background.

I'm just making sure the other point is equally expressed.

It is WAY on easier teach a new(er) shooter how to execute a trigger squeeze appropriately and get good hits (and then get them to do it faster)...

...than it is to get a trigger "slapper" to slow the F down and learn how to get lead on steel/paper/meat in the first place. Truly, there can be on substitute for hits, and I know you won't disagree with me on that.


Slow and accurate, then build speed, and only LAST should a developing shooter begin to investigate alternative methods to gain more of factor "X" at acceptable expense to "Y" (best example being speed v. accuracy). Some of you (us?) are well into stage 3 there, but there are a helluva lot of shooters that read this site that may not be.
-Nate

 

[Coach]

2017 was supposed to be my trigger control year. Hmm, maybe 2018?

Me too. Let's make it a priority this year. I made a few strides in 2017 but not what I wanted to get done. I fired 800 rounds in the dynamic marksmanship course without a single miss. Did not need a paster all weekend, and was within a second of Jake's pace on drills. When I have the right focus I can do it. Need to be more consistent.

 

[Topshot]

Do you think he mis-spoke on the 60-40 comment or he is/was actually meaning to do 60% with the gun hand? I like his overall attitude about grip.

He said he was taught 60 primary, 40 support, but he doesn't like that and instead prefers to say 100% from both hands - strongest grip you can comfortably have without affecting the ability to run the gun.

 

[riverman67]

For what its worth
I have always found the percentage description to be confusing for people, me included.
Someone described it to me a little differently and their description helped.
The strong hand grip should be firm but not so firm that the trigger cant be manipulated without disturbing the sight picture.
Grip the **** out of it with the weak hand.
I have noticed when I'm having trouble hitting plates at distance the culprit is a lazy weak hand grip