Young Maggie's highly unusual first solo flight.

[Flyguyxii]

You just made my point, thank you for taking the time.

As a Real A&P Let me congratulate you on almost becoming a A&P.

 

[Flyguyxii]

As Ggreen has said there are a lot of shady things pilots try to do to their aircraft to save money. As an A&P IA whos name/liability is on the line when signing off an annual it is our job to make sure the pilot/owner haven't modified or tried to sneak anything illegal past us. It is our job to make sure the AD's have been complied with before signing off an annual whether the owner wants to comply with it or not. If they don't want to make the aircraft legal than I don't sign off the annual simple as that. Thankfully I work for a private company and don't have to deal with the general
populous of pilot out in the GA world or have to keep and maintain any specialized tools for the various aircraft out there. By the way these tools can be expensive hence why shop rates are where they are.

 

[hoosierdoc]

As a Real A&P Let me congratulate you on almost becoming a A&P.

Do you dispute the fraud?

 

[Ggreen]

You just made my point, thank you for taking the time.

Your welcome, please feel free to throw mud at my house anytime. And make sure to keep telling your pilot friends that A&P's are scum bags out to scam, I love getting paid to fix all the mx that "mechanics, mechanical engineers, almost A&P's" do to their airplane. I've been called worse by better, but I've never lied, cheated or scammed a pilot or owner. I know a few hacks, but they don't last, I know more pilots that can't afford to own an aircraft and blame it on technicians. Shop rates in GA is 60 an hour, shop rate at the local chevy dealership is 80+.

 

[Flyguyxii]

Do you dispute the fraud?

Dispute the fraud as in the almost A&P yes I do. I will however add that just like any profession there are bad people on both sides. I will also add that you cant generalize all A&P's or pilots into one group or another. Its a small community and you have to let the frauds speak for themselves.

 

[Ggreen]

Do you dispute the fraud?

Sometimes. I've literally been called and asked if me or my boss would sign an annual on a cub that crashed after contact with a power line while the pilot and passenger were picking off coyotes at the Hanford area in Wa state... So yeah there is a lot of fraud that goes on, but it's very rarely on the end of the mechanic.

 

[hoosierdoc]

There’s plenty of fraud in medicine too. Just curious what was being disputed here

 

[Ggreen]

There’s plenty of fraud in medicine too. Just curious what was being disputed here

Flightsimmer wanted to make a point about a&p's and the FAA's mx regs being a fraud because this wheel fell off. First there are no real facts that I've seen about what happened. Second, owners and pilots are expressly authorized to change tires, oil and other standard tasks. So yeah, I dispute the fraud claims based on lack of intel on the actual event. Most flight instructors I know that operate their own aircraft do as much mx as they can without an A&P to save money, in this case there is no telling. There is also no telling on whether or not structural fatigue caused this fail, I have personally worked a Cherokee 140 that had a gear leg separate at the knuckle due to hard landings, it's just cast aluminum with a steel axle pressed in. So yeah this guy calling fraud is just mad because the FAA, and prior CAA made rules that require aircraft mx to be done by certified mechanics whose initial and continuing education is closely monitored for public safety reasons. Airplane engines don't stop and let you pull over, they seize and the aircraft proceeds to the crash site.

 

[actaeon277]

Stuff break.
That happens.
It is not possible to predict the life of every piece of equipment.

 

[Ggreen]

Stuff break.
That happens.
It is not possible to predict the life of every piece of equipment.

Truth, there is a major push from the aviation industry to move maintenance from preventative based on engineering guesses to on condition mx. But that Cherokee landing gear is an issue. A lot of those little airplanes live lives of students bouncing them off of pavement over and over for the last 30 years of their lives, its more common on them than people admit. If no one gets a picture groups of airport people work to hide the incident to keep the big bad faa away, and that is how dangerous trends seem like one off tragedies in aviation.

 

[actaeon277]

When I'm called on a piece of equipment, granted it's in the steel industry, I always hear... "It CAN'T be that. It MUST be something else. It was working a few minutes (or hours) ago."

I always tell them, there is a dividing line at which something works, and which it doesn't.

 

[flightsimmer]

As a Real A&P Let me congratulate you on almost becoming a A&P.

Oh I could have finished for my licence but when the instructor admitted in front of the class that I was correct, that's when I decided to quit and I didn’t take that lightly,I had a lot invested.

Also, I thought (apparently wrongly) that I had no intention of painting all or only licenced A&P mechanics with the same brush just like not all cops are bad cops but there are sure a lot of them.

I used to do a lot of my own work at the airport and I would have the local mechanics check and certify
(sign off ) on my work, I even helped them with there jobs for free just for the experience.

I sent one of my engines to a (CERTIFIED) rebuild station for a complete zero hour rebuild, it cost me $11,500.00. Later after I got the engine back I was contacted by the FAA and told my airworthiness certificate had been cancelled because the rebuild station had used prohibited methods on my engine which explained why it burned so much oil after the rebuild.
So I had to spend another $11,500.00 for another rebuild and several thousand more for more new parts. I never recovered any of my loses. I could have bought a brand new engine for that kind of money had I known how it would turn out.

I've got more but it's late and I'm tired so I'm going to bed and now I'm to mad to go to sleep remembering how I got screwed.

 

[Flyguyxii]

I may have gotten a little heated about being generalized as a scammer or con etc. I take great pride in my work and have a lot of integrity and will never con or scam somebody with an aircraft. If I cant complete a job in the way that I want it done (show quality work) I redo my work before returning the aircraft to service and would never pass the cost onto the owner/operator.
I led a project years ago at well known service center on a Beechjet. The customer was having it painted and then having an inspection done which is something I don't recommend. Generally it should be inspection then paint. Anyways as I was running the project I would find flaws in the paint and point them out to the owner of the aircraft because I didn't feel that the quality of paint coming out of our facility was up to par with the product we where promising the customer. I ended up having the paint department mad at me because they had to take the aircraft back to the paint shop three different times because they didn't fix the flaws when they had the aircraft the first time and the customer was not happy with the quality. Not only that but they almost had to buy a full aircraft set of antennas because the factory maintenance manuals for the aircraft stated no paint on the antenna's of the aircraft. The paint shop was able to find documentation from the antenna manufacturer for data on a painted antenna and was able to return the aircraft to service with that data. Integrity has a lot to do with a good and trust worthy A&P. I'm sorry you got hosed by the overhaul shop that you sent your engine to but there are lawyers out there for a reason. I also find it odd that you would drop out of a program because of something the instructor said. Another thing I would never sign off work that an owner/pilot has done to their aircraft if I was not present while the work was being performed. To much liability t blindly sign off somebody else's work even after inspecting the work. I either watch it get done or it doesn't get signed off.

 

[Ggreen]

Oh I could have finished for my licence but when the instructor admitted in front of the class that I was correct, that's when I decided to quit and I didn’t take that lightly,I had a lot invested.

Also, I thought (apparently wrongly) that I had no intention of painting all or only licenced A&P mechanics with the same brush just like not all cops are bad cops but there are sure a lot of them.

I used to do a lot of my own work at the airport and I would have the local mechanics check and certify
(sign off ) on my work, I even helped them with there jobs for free just for the experience.

I sent one of my engines to a (CERTIFIED) rebuild station for a complete zero hour rebuild, it cost me $11,500.00. Later after I got the engine back I was contacted by the FAA and told my airworthiness certificate had been cancelled because the rebuild station had used prohibited methods on my engine which explained why it burned so much oil after the rebuild.
So I had to spend another $11,500.00 for another rebuild and several thousand more for more new parts. I never recovered any of my loses. I could have bought a brand new engine for that kind of money had I known how it would turn out.

I've got more but it's late and I'm tired so I'm going to bed and now I'm to mad to go to sleep remembering how I got screwed.

Let me doddg it up here.

1. What professor/instructor would admit to a student that that professors life career that he is teaching was a fraud? Something doesn't hold water, but I wasn't there so whatevs.

2. Your intent was clear from the get go, and you definitely painted with a broad brush. You only backed up when you realized you were in an environment that had counterpoints. You have a bone to pick with how expensive airplane ownership was and you will bash our industry to everyone you meet. May not be intentional but it's what your doing.

1a. I know a lot of cops, I don't know a single bad one. I know people who were crummy cops, but they all got fired.

3. I had a lot of guys who wanted me to check their work and sign it off, if they can do it better and don't want to pay me they can go ahead and explain that to the investigators when something happens. I did/do some consulting on experimentals, but certified aircraft by law requires me to do the maintenance or oversee it, if I didn't see it I definitely didn't oversee and I'm not breaking CFR's for anyone. Want to do your own work, build your own airplane, or find that shady tech that will sign it off for a beer. This is my profession and my livelihood why would I go on a limb for anyone? I wouldn't ask you to. Law also requires me to solely complete annuals, so "owner assisted" is the owner watching me do my work and learning by watching and asking questions. It is a proven fact that non assisted annuals are cheaper when in a shop that charges by the hour. Most owners have to ask questions and then it becomes a lesson and that adds time, and time is money. We don't get free groceries we still have to earn a living despite what a group of pilots believe.

4. Repair stations do not require a&p's. I would really like to see the letter the faa sent you telling you your engine was decertified, it would be a first for me. I have seen ad's issued against engines done in shady service centers, or that had parts suspected to be out of spec, but I've never seen the FAA straight up revoke an engine's certificate. I would have been knocking on a lawyers door and gotten a settlement from the repair station. Not saying it didn't / doesn't happen, but if the FAA did revoke its airworthiness somehow you should have sought satisfaction from the people who ripped you off. Not aviation maintenance in general.

5. 11,500 is cheap, like half to 1/3 price of what a zero time costs, may have been a going rate back in the 80s I guess. I spent nearly that in parts and repairs on the last 0-300 I overhauled not counting time (which I got ripped out of by a pilot that promised me flight training, my fault not aviation). Zero times are wastes of money anyway, a good local a&p IA could have overhauled your engine for less money and would have been there to support you through your break in. Lots of books and articles on the topic. A lot, not all, but an awful lot of oil consumption and leak issuses come from improper break ins. A good local IA could have had you squared away with an overhauled, not rebuilt which is zero timed, for roughly 2/3 the cost of a zero time depending on what needed replaced including installation. I saw a lot of people get sucked into the zero time trap, and the margins and mandatory replacments for overhaul vs rebuilt are slim. And there is no value added with a zero time engine vs. overhauled (with all the tags). Sucks you got got, but it wasn't the faa and it wasn't a&p's that got you. It was a budget repair station that if you did a little research beyond price you more than likely would have known had issues. Aviation is a tiny community, cheap shops get good reviews from shady operators, good shops get bad reputations because they charge fair prices.... until something happens like you had. We all know the shady shops, but they stay in business because of penny pinching owners who almost always end up paying more over time as compared to a quality shop that costs more upfront.

6
. Sorry you got called out. I'm not sorry for defending aviation mx in the U.S. the regs and highly trained and licensed mx professionals are a major reason for our safety record in civil aviation. Maintenance induced faults are a problem, but most come from unnecessary, but mandatory invasive inspections. This is being worked out, but aviation rule making takes time as it is a government process.

 

[cbhausen]

I’d guess it was a wheel bearing failure, not the gear leg. Those small tires spin the wheel bearings up from zero rpm to 3 to 4x what an automotive wheel bearing sees instantly when the plane touches down which beats the he’ll out of the bearings. Wheel stayed on during taxi and takeoff then gyroscopic effect pulled it off the axle when the plane lifted off, probably during a direction change or yaw correction.

I have a lot of friends in the experimental aviation world that have transitioned from certificated aircraft. It’s nice to not have to go through so much BS when it comes to equipping and maintaining their planes.

 

[Flyguyxii]

Let me doddg it up here.

1. What professor/instructor would admit to a student that that professors life career that he is teaching was a fraud? Something doesn't hold water, but I wasn't there so whatevs.

2. Your intent was clear from the get go, and you definitely painted with a broad brush. You only backed up when you realized you were in an environment that had counterpoints. You have a bone to pick with how expensive airplane ownership was and you will bash our industry to everyone you meet. May not be intentional but it's what your doing.

1a. I know a lot of cops, I don't know a single bad one. I know people who were crummy cops, but they all got fired.

3. I had a lot of guys who wanted me to check their work and sign it off, if they can do it better and don't want to pay me they can go ahead and explain that to the investigators when something happens. I did/do some consulting on experimentals, but certified aircraft by law requires me to do the maintenance or oversee it, if I didn't see it I definitely didn't oversee and I'm not breaking CFR's for anyone. Want to do your own work, build your own airplane, or find that shady tech that will sign it off for a beer. This is my profession and my livelihood why would I go on a limb for anyone? I wouldn't ask you to. Law also requires me to solely complete annuals, so "owner assisted" is the owner watching me do my work and learning by watching and asking questions. It is a proven fact that non assisted annuals are cheaper when in a shop that charges by the hour. Most owners have to ask questions and then it becomes a lesson and that adds time, and time is money. We don't get free groceries we still have to earn a living despite what a group of pilots believe.

4. Repair stations do not require a&p's. I would really like to see the letter the faa sent you telling you your engine was decertified, it would be a first for me. I have seen ad's issued against engines done in shady service centers, or that had parts suspected to be out of spec, but I've never seen the FAA straight up revoke an engine's certificate. I would have been knocking on a lawyers door and gotten a settlement from the repair station. Not saying it didn't / doesn't happen, but if the FAA did revoke its airworthiness somehow you should have sought satisfaction from the people who ripped you off. Not aviation maintenance in general.

5. 11,500 is cheap, like half to 1/3 price of what a zero time costs, may have been a going rate back in the 80s I guess. I spent nearly that in parts and repairs on the last 0-300 I overhauled not counting time (which I got ripped out of by a pilot that promised me flight training, my fault not aviation). Zero times are wastes of money anyway, a good local a&p IA could have overhauled your engine for less money and would have been there to support you through your break in. Lots of books and articles on the topic. A lot, not all, but an awful lot of oil consumption and leak issuses come from improper break ins. A good local IA could have had you squared away with an overhauled, not rebuilt which is zero timed, for roughly 2/3 the cost of a zero time depending on what needed replaced including installation. I saw a lot of people get sucked into the zero time trap, and the margins and mandatory replacments for overhaul vs rebuilt are slim. And there is no value added with a zero time engine vs. overhauled (with all the tags). Sucks you got got, but it wasn't the faa and it wasn't a&p's that got you.

5. Sorry you got called out. I'm not sorry for defending aviation mx in the U.S. the regs and highly trained and licensed mx professionals are a major reason for our safety record in civil aviation. Maintenance induced faults are a problem, but most come from unnecessary, but mandatory invasive inspections. This is being worked out, but aviation rule making takes time as it is a government process.

Well said Mr. Ggreen.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Update.
[video=youtube;22K4WTNkeOY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22K4WTNkeOY[/video]

 

[Ggreen]

I’d guess it was a wheel bearing failure, not the gear leg. Those small tires spin the wheel bearings up from zero rpm to 3 to 4x what an automotive wheel bearing sees instantly when the plane touches down which beats the he’ll out of the bearings. Wheel stayed on during taxi and takeoff then gyroscopic effect pulled it off the axle when the plane lifted off, probably during a direction change or yaw correction.

I have a lot of friends in the experimental aviation world that have transitioned from certificated aircraft. It’s nice to not have to go through so much BS when it comes to equipping and maintaining their planes.

Those gear legs are notorious weak points. That cast aluminum knuckle cracks and owners put shiny white krylon over the cracks before annual to save money. I've seen a lot. I've seen bearing seizures, but never seen one so bad that it departed the aircraft. I would imagine hardware malfunction. We'll see though.

 

[cbhausen]

Those gear legs are notorious weak points. That cast aluminum knuckle cracks and owners put shiny white krylon over the cracks before annual to save money. I've seen a lot. I've seen bearing seizures, but never seen one so bad that it departed the aircraft. I would imagine hardware malfunction. We'll see though.

Hard to imagine anyone hiding a crack with paint, especially when it’s part of the landing gear. Do people think this stuff fixes itself?

 

[Flyguyxii]

Hard to imagine anyone hiding a crack with paint, especially when it’s part of the landing gear. Do people think this stuff fixes itself?

I've seen/found cracks that are hard to see with the naked eye that's why there are NDT requirements for some parts. X-rays, Dye pen and Mag particle to name a few.