Zahal Training Death

[churchmouse]

OK folks. Lets keep this inside the lines please.
Opinions are exactly that and we all have them.
Express them freely and in a civil fashion please.

Carry on.

 

[GIJEW]

I Have encountered many near misses in 24 years.
Many moons ago when I was a Platoon Sergeant.
We were doing a Night Deliberate Defense live fire which was a dry,blank,live run.
The dry and blank runs included OPFOR attacking. Dry run was fine during the blank run one of the SAW gunners grabbed what was supposed to be a 200 round magazine of 5.56 blank guess what it was "live".
The Gunner alerted his Team Leader he called a "ceasefire". I was like a ceasefire during a blank run?
Yes the blank and live were segregated by different ASP points. After all the finger pointing and investigation the best idea was it was blanks drawn from the main ASP were in an opened lot that had gotten mixed with one live magazine.
Gunner did his job he IDed the live ammo alerted his Team Leader which call the ceasefire.
BTW that would have been a career ending event for several Soldiers including me.
The worst case it could have killed someone but being a Soldier is not a safe job.

I have many many more the missing Hand Grenade, the M202 " flash" incident, the exploding deer.

^^^THIS^^^

Military training is distinguished from civilian training by a different level of intensity with it's higher level of risk and an "acceptable casualty ratio" that is higher than zero.

The problem with this incident is--as stated in the article--that:

1)safety procedures weren't maintained

2)The training was done ad-hoc in an operational enviornment

which didn't lend itself to being a sterile training enviornment which no doubt had something to do with the break down in safety procedures

and detracted from the soldiers being focused on what they actually were supposed to be doing.

 

[cbhausen]

Keeping it in a safe direction seems to be ripe for training to fail. How do you do drills such as the OP without point the gun at the bad guy? Point almost at him? If you do that enough times, might it be natural to not see the aggressor in your sights, and still you'll fire.

We see this sort of thing often in our EMT and Paramedic programs--unintended consequences of not being able to completely practice like you play.

This type of training (blanks, Simunition, etc.) is for the select few like Militaty, LEO, etc. and should be conducted in an ironclad controlled environment. The Zahal training death resulted, in part, from an improvised environment.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All guns are always loaded. Ok then how do I field strip a Glock? How do I ship a firearm? How do I "unload and show clear" at any number of shooting sports?

It is simple. One learns to follow the Four Rules and stop rationalizing unsafe behavior in the name of being cool, different or cutting edge or whatever nonsense one is doing.

 

[jbombelli]

I find that I only really need ONE rule of gun safety:

1. Don't be a dumbass.


It's worked for me for 35 years.

 

[Shay]

It is simple. One learns to follow the Four Rules and stop rationalizing unsafe behavior in the name of being cool, different or cutting edge or whatever nonsense one is doing.

It really is simple, isn't it. All guns are always loaded. There are no unloaded guns anywhere, ever. Unloaded guns simply don't exist.

 

[oldpink]

It really is simple, isn't it. All guns are always loaded. There are no unloaded guns anywhere, ever. Unloaded guns simply don't exist.

Yeah, the sarcasm...whatever.
It's quite simple, really.
1) Treat every gun as if loaded at all times.
2) The only time to treat a gun as not loaded is once it is properly cleared before cleaning and with the barrel still pointed in a safe direction while being put into a state ready to clean and unable to fire, i.e. bolt removed, slide removed, action partially disassembled sufficiently to removing the crucial firing mechanism.
Bring on the equivocation.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Can't we settle this argument with the simple compromise of 'don't point the gun at anything you don't want shot whether you believe it to be loaded or not'?

 

[ATM]

Can't we settle this argument with the simple compromise of 'don't point the gun at anything you don't want shot whether you believe it to be loaded or not'?

There is no argument. Where you point the gun is ALWAYS important. Beliefs just aren't.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It really is simple, isn't it. All guns are always loaded. There are no unloaded guns anywhere, ever. Unloaded guns simply don't exist.

Correct. Let's stopping being tactical cool, learn how firearms and projectiles operate and stop ending up with students or bystanders shot.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

There is no argument. Where you point the gun is ALWAYS important. Beliefs just aren't.

Where you point the gun does not mean that that is where the bullet will end up.

For example, bullets ric off the concrete floors of gun shows and so if we only had an example of a gun show shooting . . . oh, wait, we do, it happened today when someone thought his gun wasn't "low-dead:.

It's like this happens all the time because people want to be too cool for school or something, Adams County detectives investigate ?accidental? shooting at Tanner Gun Show ? The Denver Post

 

[IndyDave1776]

Where you point the gun does not mean that that is where the bullet will end up.

For example, bullets ric off the concrete floors of gun shows and so if we only had an example of a gun show shooting . . . oh, wait, we do, it happened today when someone thought his gun wasn't "low-dead:.

It's like this happens all the time because people want to be too cool for school or something, Adams County detectives investigate ?accidental? shooting at Tanner Gun Show ? The Denver Post

OK, so how does this make a difference? Regardless of whether you believe your gun to be in a perpetual state of being loaded whether it is or not, how does that affect having it pointed at a ricochet-prone surface? In either case, the only safe alternative is to not have the gun pointed at concrete. That said, there is no difference to be had in straining gnats here.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

OK, so how does this make a difference? Regardless of whether you believe your gun to be in a perpetual state of being loaded whether it is or not, how does that affect having it pointed at a ricochet-prone surface? In either case, the only safe alternative is to not have the gun pointed at concrete. That said, there is no difference to be had in straining gnats here.

Rule #4, ensure of your target and what is behind it. When you press the trigger the weapon SHALL discharge, so, yeah, better get on that bern or sand barrel. If none in sight, then stop touching it.

Many who have slots to fill in the Charge of the 300 believe that "safe handling" of firearms exists independent of the Four Rules. The problem is that they forget that what they think is a "safe direction" (the current fad") does not stop the bullet (the Ohio "safe direction" that zipped through the wall and killed the gun shop stool sitter) and is merely subjective to the handler. So you have Dealer McNumbnuts whip his Glock out and field strip it but he does not realize that All Guns Are Always loaded so he sends off riccing off the concrete just missing the baby stroller because he is all tactical.

Look, there may be many roads to enlightenment in the form of safety rules, but this Captain Tacticalpants nonsense that we can be unsafe because we are cool will not help us as a broader culture and will only result in unneeded death and injury to students and bystanders.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Rule #4, ensure of your target and what is behind it. When you press the trigger the weapon SHALL discharge, so, yeah, better get on that bern or sand barrel. If none in sight, then stop touching it.

Many who have slots to fill in the Charge of the 300 believe that "safe handling" of firearms exists independent of the Four Rules. The problem is that they forget that what they think is a "safe direction" (the current fad") does not stop the bullet (the Ohio "safe direction" that zipped through the wall and killed the gun shop stool sitter) and is merely subjective to the handler. So you have Dealer McNumbnuts whip his Glock out and field strip it but he does not realize that All Guns Are Always loaded so he sends off riccing off the concrete just missing the baby stroller because he is all tactical.

Look, there may be many roads to enlightenment in the form of safety rules, but this Captain Tacticalpants nonsense that we can be unsafe because we are cool will not help us as a broader culture and will only result in unneeded death and injury to students and bystanders.

Within the context that would appear irrelevant unless one is deliberately firing. I would point out that a direction is or is not safe regardless of what anyone 'thinks'. After all, some people 'think' twirling guns like flags in a color guard is safe because, of course, 'it isn't loaded'. The bottom line is that because someone erroneously believes a direction to be safe, that doesn't make it safe, and doesn't negate the imperative of keeping it pointed in a safe direction. Believing in the notion of perpetual loadedness doesn't help in a situation like this. The man failed to clear his gun before attempting to field strip a gun which requires pulling the trigger to release the slide, obviously done while pointing in an unsafe direction or it would be irrelevant if he had an accidental/negligent/sociopathic as hell discharge (yet another gnat-straining exercise I fine remarkably tiresome).

I don't recall anyone here advocating the notion that it is OK to be unsafe in the name of acting 'cool'.

 

[mgdiaz1993]

I'm going to throw my two cents in on this one.
Everyone has their different versions of safety rules, I've learned two sets that have been drilled into my head. First the 4 Weapon Safety Rules (5 Unofficially) from the Marine Corps and the 3 safe gun handling rules from the NRA. I personally tell people the abide by the 5

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
3. Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you're ready to fire
4. Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire
5. Know your target and what lies beyond

(Also I call it a firearm now, don't run me up the flag pole for calling it a weapon)

The point of these is in fact, to be redundant. I personally carry a Glock, so rule 3 is the same as rule 4, and 2 is in the same vein as number 1.
I honestly don't see the point in arguing semantics here, and in reality, if you really want to split hairs. If you're doing force on force training with a firearm, both parties are treating whatever firearm is involved as if it were loaded.

When I disassemble my pistol, I point it in a direction I would hypothetically be okay with shooting a round towards

It's always acceptable to be more safe with firearms, why argue the point that number 2 eliminates number one?

 

[mgdiaz1993]

Also, you usually teach safety rules to BRAND NEW shooters, people with little to no firearms training, and a good baseline (hence why it's the first) is just to treat every gun like it's loaded. It's easy enough to remember, and can cut down on a lot of negligent discharges is every kept that mindset. If the rules need adjusted later on for higher level instruction, so be it, but start with the basics. Walk before your run.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Also, you usually teach safety rules to BRAND NEW shooters, people with little to no firearms training, and a good baseline (hence why it's the first) is just to treat every gun like it's loaded. It's easy enough to remember, and can cut down on a lot of negligent discharges is every kept that mindset. If the rules need adjusted later on for higher level instruction, so be it, but start with the basics. Walk before your run.

This was no accident. The zelner meant to do this.

This is about a flagrant violation of safety rules, 3, 4, whatever because someone wanted to play Shin Bet/Mossad with a 19 year old doing his UMS.

It is about arrogance of thinking he knew best and a reminder to all that the Four Rules alway apply. A warning we cannot receive enough, though I prefer without dead bodies.

 

[ATM]

Also, you usually teach safety rules to BRAND NEW shooters, people with little to no firearms training, and a good baseline (hence why it's the first) is just to treat every gun like it's loaded. It's easy enough to remember, and can cut down on a lot of negligent discharges is every kept that mindset. If the rules need adjusted later on for higher level instruction, so be it, but start with the basics. Walk before your run.

Putting anything in front of the golden rule of safe gun handling is folly.

ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Loaded/unloaded status is comparatively insignificant. There is no argument.

 

[mgdiaz1993]

I feel like you're splitting hairs here. They're the age old rules that millions of military, law enforcement, and civilians have learned and lived by for decades.
Why fix what isn't broke?
Personally I don't think it much matters what order they're in, how you say it, or what language you say it in, as long as you convey the fundamentals of safe weapons handling.
Also, like I previously stated, the rules are intentionally redundant.

 

[BearFodder]

Putting anything in front of the golden rule of safe gun handling is folly.

...

I agree, that's why I always start with "Treat all guns as if they are loaded"