Zahal Training Death

[BearFodder]

Also, you usually teach safety rules to BRAND NEW shooters, people with little to no firearms training, and a good baseline (hence why it's the first) is just to treat every gun like it's loaded. It's easy enough to remember, and can cut down on a lot of negligent discharges is every kept that mindset. ...

Makes perfect sense to me and many others!

 

[Spear Dane]

So there are some dudes that actually test the security at DOE faculties.
They see how far they can get without getting stopped!
I still can't understand half of them have not got snuffed.

This story reminds me of it for some unknown reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cell

If you have not read any of Dick Marcinko's non fiction I highly recommend. He is the father of SEAL Team Six.

Also...I see nothing wrong with having "Gun is always loaded" as part of the safety mantra because there is a mind set of respect and caution that goes with it which DOES NOT correlate with "Point in safe direction, always." A negligent discharge in a 'safe direction' is STILL a negligent discharge.

 

[ATM]

The golden rule of safe gun handling certainly predated Cooper and his attempts at rewording things.

Negligent discharges in safe directions amount to procedural errors rather than tragedies. They are coachable moments, not potential funerals.

There is no debate left to be had. This isn't just about personal preferences, but priority of risk mitigation.

 

[BearFodder]

The golden rule of safe gun handling certainly predated Cooper and his attempts at rewording things.

Now that we have established what the golden rule of gun handling is we can move on and discuss further.

Negligent discharges in safe directions amount to procedural errors rather than tragedies. They are coachable moments, not potential funerals.

Your point of view on gun safety seems to be that of a trainer there to coach a person standing on the firing line where down range is a safe direction.

When your student is in his/her hotel room cleaning their gun(s) you better hope the student treats all guns as if they are loaded. Let's hope they keep their finger off the trigger until the gun is pointed in a safe direction and cleared. Otherwise their new coaches may be police officers, doctors, lawyers, judges, inmates, friends & family etc. I use that example because I was cleaning multiple guns on a trip once and picked up a gun I thought was unloaded. I treated the gun as if it were loaded and determined that my coach knows his stuff.

Of course, I had to re-evaluate gun cleaning rules 101.

There is no debate left to be had. This isn't just about personal preferences, but priority of risk mitigation.

I agree!

 

[BearFodder]

Training against knife attack at a checkpoint. Being all tactical and nonsense will get you killed in the streets. Literally.

Stop looking for excuses to point guns at people.

My Hebrew is weak, I can say it in Yiddish though, "Ich hat naat visn azz is gaven loutit."

Negligent Training Results in IDF Death - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

Kirk, How often does this type of training accident happen?

I have trained with blue guns and air soft. From previous threads and this one you seem to NOT be a fan of this type of training. Can't even point a blue gun at someone in training?

So, how often does this type of training accident happen? The last one I remember: 73 Year Old Woman Shot By Police During Training Exercise

Some things I only need one example to save me: drawstring/clothing make gun go BANG!, worn holster BANG! other peoples finger on trigger BANG!

 

[Benp]

It seems that a lot of these deaths do not come from people who are new to guns, but those who feel like they are experts. Never lose the healthy respect for the firearm.

 

[ATM]

Now that we have established what the golden rule of gun handling is we can move on and discuss further.

Also called "The Accident-Proof Rule" for more than 100 years: "The muzzle of a firearm should never point in a direction in which, if discharged, it would do injury where injury is not meant to be done."

Your point of view on gun safety seems to be that of a trainer there to coach a person standing on the firing line where down range is a safe direction.

Nope, I prefer a more universal approach. Did you base this assumption on anything I've written here?

When your student is in his/her hotel room cleaning their gun(s) you better hope the student treats all guns as if they are loaded. Let's hope they keep their finger off the trigger until the gun is pointed in a safe direction and cleared. Otherwise their new coaches may be police officers, doctors, lawyers, judges, inmates, friends & family etc. I use that example because I was cleaning multiple guns on a trip once and picked up a gun I thought was unloaded. I treated the gun as if it were loaded and determined that my coach knows his stuff.

Your hope seems odd to me. I want guns handled safely, not "as if they're loaded".

I've gone over following safe gun handling steps while preparing for disassembly/cleaning in great detail in other threads. Perhaps you missed it.

Of course, I had to re-evaluate gun cleaning rules 101.

None of my steps include making assumptions or allowing for excuses. YMMV.

I agree!

Excellent.

 

[BearFodder]

Excellent.

Sweet!

 

[ATM]

Sweet!

Dude!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk, How often does this type of training accident happen?

Too often.

I have trained with blue guns and air soft. From previous threads and this one you seem to NOT be a fan of this type of training. Can't even point a blue gun at someone in training?

I am not a fan of a lack of discipline which is the weak spot in the gun culture. Sloppy, undisciplined training gets people shot dead with an alarming regularity.

So, how often does this type of training accident happen? The last one I remember: 73 Year Old Woman Shot By Police During Training Exercise

How often do students get shot in "big boy" scenarios? A lot.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=5741

The Charge of the 300 will bring more and more of this to CONUS. We need to get out in front of this and stop this b.s. "training".

 

[NIFT]

Too often.

I am not a fan of a lack of discipline which is the weak spot in the gun culture. Sloppy, undisciplined training gets people shot dead with an alarming regularity.


The Charge of the 300 will bring more and more of this to CONUS. We need to get out in front of this and stop this b.s. "training".

That would be great; however, the "$64,000 question" is how do we do that?

 

[BearFodder]

Kirk - I have no interest in military type training or civilian contractor type training. Not interested in tacticool.

The airsoft training I took ran scenarios similar to what BBI uses to train his students. BBI used real guns and we shot targets. The force on force class used airsoft guns and the targets moved and shot back. Maybe similar to Shay's Mindset Laboratory FoF training. No wall climbing boots or armor plates duct taped to our backs (I promise!)

So, how often does an incident like that of the 73 year old actually happen. Toy gun was supposed to be used, real gun was used instead (accidently).

 

[Brad69]

Hmm
Seems the thread has wondered away a bit.
One factor in the incident was an unsupervised Lieutenant they have a habit of doing stupid stuff.
By they way if you train hard people are going to get hurt and die it's about risk mitigation.
Is the value of the training worth the risk?
Would the risk mitigation impair the training?
I personally can not foresee a situation where a civilian training course would need to approach the level of a "high risk" event?
The risk decision has to be made at the appropriate level and everyone who made that decision has "skin" in the game.
In the civilian world it seems common place to have ND/AD on the range and still have people show up and pay money?

Do not point a weapon at something unless you are prepared to kill it and then be prepared to deal with the aftermath of what YOU did not the weapon.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Hmm
Seems the thread has wondered away a bit.
One factor in the incident was an unsupervised Lieutenant they have a habit of doing stupid stuff.
By they way if you train hard people are going to get hurt and die it's about risk mitigation.
Is the value of the training worth the risk?
Would the risk mitigation impair the training?
I personally can not foresee a situation where a civilian training course would need to approach the level of a "high risk" event?
The risk decision has to be made at the appropriate level and everyone who made that decision has "skin" in the game.
In the civilian world it seems common place to have ND/AD on the range and still have people show up and pay money?

Do not point a weapon at something unless you are prepared to kill it and then be prepared to deal with the aftermath of what YOU did not the weapon.

Yes, it reminds of something another INGOer says:

The First Rule of Dunning-Kruger Club is you don't know you're in Dunning-Kruger Club.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That would be great; however, the "$64,000 question" is how do we do that?

It has to come bottom up. We obviously have "instructors" who do not know how firearms or projectiles operate.

We need to make changes before the politicians do.

 

[BearFodder]

I see my answer there in your signature line, Thanks!
"Put your plastic guns in the flames and repent to the East. X Clan."

 

[NIFT]

It has to come bottom up. We obviously have "instructors" who do not know how firearms or projectiles operate.

We need to make changes before the politicians do.

Agree with your first sentence. For all intents and purposes, there are no standard qualifications/standards/education requirements to become an "instructor." The NRA has its instructor program--for what it may be worth--along with a Law Enforcement Instructor program. Additionally, there are other LE certifications, such as ILEA and FLETC, but those are limited to LE and military. Still, no guarantee of instructor competence, even though folks who have completed such programs, likely, know how firearms and ammunition/projectiles operate.

What changes, specifically, do you recommend and-or we need to make, and how are those changes to be implemented and by whom?

Additionally, what, specifically, changes are contemplated by "the politicians" that must be assuaged?

 

[rhino]

The best teachers and the best instruction and training in the world won't help if the students are not receptive and motivated.

 

[ATM]

The best teachers and the best instruction and training in the world won't help if the students are not receptive and motivated.

If only we could regurgitate an attention to loaded status more passionately... then they'd care about safe gun handling and quit offering ridiculous excuses to wave their guns around like pom poms.

...if only.

 

[BearFodder]

Deleted - My post was about normal accidents with guns not relevant for this thread Training accidents.