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  1. #11
    Grandmaster gregkl's Avatar

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    If only the FFL has the record then how does the police trace a gun used in a crime back to the original purchaser? Or can't they?
    "If things seem under control, you are just not going fast enough"--Mario Andretti

  2. #12
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denny347 View Post
    Not likely since the ATF is not allowed to digitize those records. When a FFL goes out of business and send in it's records to the ATF, they get stored in a metal shipping container to never be seen again unless one of us asks for a gun trace then they have to go through the stacks of records by hand. Without digitizing those records, serial numbers will NEVER be attached.
    Wow, so I almost Denny'd a thread with my own understanding of the way it works!

  3. #13
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregkl View Post
    If only the FFL has the record then how does the police trace a gun used in a crime back to the original purchaser? Or can't they?
    They can start with the manufacturer/distributor, who would have records of which FFL the gun was sent to. Then they would have to go through that FFL's 4473's, but that still only gives them the original purchaser. If the gun was sold several more times after that, the trail goes cold. Even if the original purchaser sold it, say on Gunbroker, where it had to be transferred to the buyer through an FFL, that FFL would still only have that record. If the guy that bought it off GB sold it to somebody else (private sale - no FFL), again, the trail goes cold.

  4. #14
    Grandmaster gregkl's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoggyDaddy View Post
    They can start with the manufacturer/distributor, who would have records of which FFL the gun was sent to. Then they would have to go through that FFL's 4473's, but that still only gives them the original purchaser. If the gun was sold several more times after that, the trail goes cold. Even if the original purchaser sold it, say on Gunbroker, where it had to be transferred to the buyer through an FFL, that FFL would still only have that record. If the guy that bought it off GB sold it to somebody else (private sale - no FFL), again, the trail goes cold.
    Thanks. That makes sense. The distributor keeps records of where serial numbers go so it get's narrowed down to possibly one location. Cops pop in, scan the book and find the original purchasers name and address and pay them a visit.

    It makes me think though that I have sold several firearms and I wouldn't be able to tell the officers who I sold them to. I only verify DL and view LTCH. I don't record anything and I couldn't pick them out of a line up if I had to.
    "If things seem under control, you are just not going fast enough"--Mario Andretti

  5. #15
    Marksman

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullmetaljesus View Post
    Right wing republicans put him in office.
    Typically speaking gun lovers are right wing republicans.

    Do y'all really think he will alienate his voter base this close to am election year?
    He might, remember for years he was a NY Democrat and looks at the gun issue from that point of view.
    I might add that if he does, he may loose the next election because lots of us who voted for him will just stay home.
    If he trashes this part of the Bill of Rights then what's he going to do next?

  6. #16
    Grandmaster chipbennett's Avatar

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    And if the current owners of the 400 million guns already in private circulation refuse to comply? How would the state ever prove it?

  7. #17
    Grandmaster gregkl's Avatar

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    Personally I'm bracing for UBC, AR/AK bans and high capacity(especially the 100 rounders) mag bans at the least. If not under Trump, under the next president.

    I think we have reached a tipping point.

    But hey, I didn't think Trump would win so I have been known to be wrong...often.

    But I was right about 9 MM 1911's becoming popular.
    "If things seem under control, you are just not going fast enough"--Mario Andretti

  8. #18
    Master spec4's Avatar

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    Trump needs to stop this in its tracks. He's not stupid, he knows his base. He knows the Dems will never be satisfied until we are disarmed. Some of us recall the Gun Control Act of 1968. That was supposed to be the end all to this crap. Sure hope Trump's advisors give him a dose of reality.

  9. #19
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregkl View Post
    Thanks. That makes sense. The distributor keeps records of where serial numbers go so it get's narrowed down to possibly one location. Cops pop in, scan the book and find the original purchasers name and address and pay them a visit.

    It makes me think though that I have sold several firearms and I wouldn't be able to tell the officers who I sold them to. I only verify DL and view LTCH. I don't record anything and I couldn't pick them out of a line up if I had to.
    Right, same here, with the exception of C&R firearms which I have to record in my log book. "Who'd you sell that AR-15 to Mr. DoggyDaddy?" "I don't know... some dude. Verified his residency and saw his LTCH. " And really, seeing the LTCH is just a "feel good" measure, since we have no way of knowing whether it's been revoked or not. Simply asking if they're prohibited from owning firearms and verifying residency (with reasonable proof), is all that we need to do. And I'm not even sure that verifying residency is required. Could probably just ask them if they're a resident.

  10. #20
    Grandmaster WebSnyper's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoggyDaddy View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that under the current system (going through NICS), serial numbers are not "tied" to the buyer on a national database. That information resides on the 4473 only (kept at the FFL). What gets reported to NICS whether over the phone or online, is that "John Doe bought a handgun" or "John Doe bought a long gun." I have never heard an FFL relay that information to NICS when they would call in for any purchase I've made. I was also under the impression that it is specifically against the law (currently) for that information to be centralized by the government. So if some form of UBC were to be enacted, couldn't it be done the same way? "John Doe is selling a long gun (or hand gun) to Bob Smith." No serial numbers need be passed to the .gov.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of UBC's but I don't know that they would necessarily have to become a "registry" if they were just done under the current guidelines.
    But then how does one get charged with not following the law if UBCs become law? The logical step is that they would require a registration of some sort. The ATF can obviously audit an FFL and see if they can account for everything. Don't you think that if UBCs become law, then part of that will be to create some way to tell if folks (private sellers) are breaking the law, i.e. a defacto registration?

    This is NOT something we should even think of conceding on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny347 View Post
    Not likely since the ATF is not allowed to digitize those records. When a FFL goes out of business and send in it's records to the ATF, they get stored in a metal shipping container to never be seen again unless one of us asks for a gun trace then they have to go through the stacks of records by hand. Without digitizing those records, serial numbers will NEVER be attached.
    Again, then how is the law actually enforced if UBCs become law, without a trail?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoggyDaddy View Post
    They can start with the manufacturer/distributor, who would have records of which FFL the gun was sent to. Then they would have to go through that FFL's 4473's, but that still only gives them the original purchaser. If the gun was sold several more times after that, the trail goes cold. Even if the original purchaser sold it, say on Gunbroker, where it had to be transferred to the buyer through an FFL, that FFL would still only have that record. If the guy that bought it off GB sold it to somebody else (private sale - no FFL), again, the trail goes cold.
    Yep, and 100% understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by chipbennett View Post
    And if the current owners of the 400 million guns already in private circulation refuse to comply? How would the state ever prove it?
    This is my thought. How would they, without requiring a tracking system of some sort. The proponents of it will not call it a registration, but it will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_N_Stein
    I am trying to turn every thread I involve myself in into a **** show.

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