When You Load or Unload It Can Go Bang!

[Kirk Freeman]

carrying poorly designed weapons, Failure to maintain them, failure to control them, and failure to inspect the ammo you put in them= still negligence.

All platforms, no matter how well maintained or designed, can discharge upon loading or unloading including inertia firing pin systems such as the 870, the AR-15 and the 1911.

It is not necessarily negligence, sometimes it is accidental. We cannot control an AD but we can control if someone is hurt. To do so we need to: realize that ADs occur, follow the Four Rules and, for crying out loud, have a safe fiddle area.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

tolerating BS "it just went off" excuses isn't a viable safety practice either.

No one is tolerating it but gun owners need to be aware that yes sometimes guns do go off. Eez gon, eez not safe.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

A mechanical device makes a transition from fully functional to broken, either at one event due to a part breaking, or gradually due to wear. Are you suggesting that we should detail strip and inspect every part with a magnifying glass and caliper, after each round fired? That's frankly going to cause more problems than it solves. If it breaks, it does NOT mean you haven't been maintaining it; it means it's a mechanical device subject to wear and stress. If it fails unsafe due to the wear or breakage, it's an accident. It's not negligence until you know there's a broken part and fail to address this, or do something blatantly unsafe. Have you ever had, for example, a brake caliper blow out on a car? What maintenance can you do to prevent that?

 

[Rob377]

All platforms, no matter how well maintained or designed, can discharge upon loading or unloading including inertia firing pin systems such as the 870, the AR-15 and the 1911.

It is not necessarily negligence, sometimes it is accidental. We cannot control an AD but we can control if someone is hurt. To do so we need to: realize that ADs occur, follow the Four Rules and, for crying out loud, have a safe fiddle area.

Thanks to dear uncle sam, I've personally fired thousands and thousands of rounds through AR pattern rifles, in the presence of others doing the same. So I've got somewhere north of a million rounds of direct personal knowledge. Never, not once, was there an AD as the result of firing pin.
I've seen beat to crap M870/M590s dropped directly on the muzzle and not go off. So let's just say I find the "it just went off" line extremely doubtful and leave it there.

The guy in the OP brought an "antique 22" out loaded. By "antique 22," we can read "old, cheap POS"
Bringing an old cheap POS weapon out loaded is negligence.

Agreed on all the four rules point, but if there's a discharge, just like with barrels falling off a building, res ipsa applies.

On top of the 4 rules, I'd add the rules: 1. It's your responsibility to ensure your gun is in serviceable condition; 2. It's your responsibility to ensure your ammo is in serviceable condition; 3. It's your responsibility to buy/carry a properly designed weapon.

Properly designed and maintained weapons do not discharge without negligence.

 

[85t5mcss]

Properly designed and maintained weapons do not discharge without negligence.

I will still disagree with this. It is NOT 100% true. Just mostly true. I maintain my weapons but a part can still break that will cause it to fire during loading. Is it a ND because I didn't stress test every part before I loaded? Nope. You cannot argue that logic.

However, we do agree that pertnear all ADs are, in fact, NDs. And the human error factor IS the problem.

 

[TomN]

I load one round of Remington #00 into my Scattergun Technologies FBI Model 870. Upon closing the action the weapon discharges and clips off chunk of the cover. At no time did I touch the trigger.

Very interesting!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Properly designed and maintained weapons do not discharge without negligence.

They do and they are called accidental discharges.

We have a forum and Internet full of them.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Agreed on all the four rules point, but if there's a discharge, just like with barrels falling off a building, res ipsa applies.

Res ipsa is negligence, distinct from an accident.

My point is that, despite the defense mechanism of denial, ADs transpire and we need safe areas to load and unload and not use grandsons as backstops.

I just want everyone to realize that guns are not safe, we need to respect them and not do silly stuff like "loading in the parking lot."

Whether this one is an AD or an ND could not tell you yet. If I had to bet on it in a casino, I think we'd all agree to put our denek on ND.

 

[Rob377]

They do and they are called accidental discharges.

We have a forum and Internet full of them.

We have a forum and internet full of people who can't own up to being negligent and say "it just went off," and an internet full of people who allow that BS to go unchallenged.

Res ipsa holds that negligence can be inferred from the nature of the facts. Barrels don't generally fall off buildings without negligence, and guns don't generally discharge without negligence. if person X had exclusive control of the barrel that fell/gun that went off/scalpel that got left in body, it can be inferred they were negligent.

But, a rose by any other name....If you're gonna be negligent do it in a safe direction. To err is human. Understand that you can have a brain fart and screw up. It is far more likely that you will have a brain fart than it is that multiple parts in your properly designed weapon will fail, simultaneously, as a matter of fact. So, when your turn for a brain fart comes, be pointed in a safe direction.

My approach gets the same result (gun pointed in safe direction and not at grandson) without resorting to any tolerance of lame "it just went off" BS.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

We have a forum and internet full of people who can't own up to being negligent and say "it just went off," and an internet full of people who allow that BS to go unchallenged.

Guns do in fact just go off no matter how well maintained.

guns don't generally discharge without negligence

Not generally, no, but they can discharge accidently without any negligence whatsoever.

The denial of the fact that firearms do discharge upon loading or unloading creates scenarios wherein gun owners believe it is O.K. to violate the Four Rules and "just unload it in the parking lot".

I believe the best approach is to acknowledge the fact that firearms can discharge upon loading or unloading and then stress the proper remedy is the Four Rules and a safe fiddle area.

 

[Jerry C]

Because . . . *say it with me* ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED.

Loaded is the natural state of guns. To work they need to be loaded.

More to the point, why was he jacking with it in the magical parking lot instead of the sand barrel?

The way I understand the article he wasn't jacking with it. He was taking the rifle out of the suv and it discharged. The rifle shouldn't have been loaded in the suv but he wasn't actually jacking with it unloading ammo from it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Every time you load or unload the weapon may discharge. Next time you are at the range, load your AR-15 and then unload it. Sling arms and then pick the ejected cartridge up off the deck. Look at the primer, see how it is dented? Right, when you loaded your AR the firing pin was hitting the primer.

Is that a problem with what I've seen referred to as head spacing?

I also own a Diamondback .380, and one of the "quirks" of their design is that you have to rack the slide before inserting a new mag. It's a striker-fired weapon, but it has some kind of zero energy striker system that requires this (supposed to prevent firing if the gun is dropped with one in chamber). If you don't rack the slide, the firing pin will be extended and can interfere with the chambering of the first round. I wonder if it too could be denting the primer... their problem seems to involve it catching on the cartridge rather than the primer though. I happen to really like mine, but it's just a little habit you have to develop with this gun (racking before inserting the mag). It doesn't have a slide stop on empty so this is just a good safety habit at any rate.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The way I understand the article he wasn't jacking with it. He was taking the rifle out of the suv and it discharged. The rifle shouldn't have been loaded in the suv but he wasn't actually jacking with it unloading ammo from it.

Jerry, read it again. He was jacking with the gun by unloading it.

From the article: "As he was unloading it the gun discharged. The bullet went through the vehicle and struck the boy, who was standing outside."


I know people want to deny that guns can discharge upon loading or unloading (accidently, not negligently) because it calls into gun owner behavior in "just unloading it in the parking lot" and people do not want to think about all the dangerous gun handling they have committed or are committing.

If you must jack with a gun, ensure that you follow the Four Rules and ensure that you have a safe backstop as the guns can go bang even though your finger is no where near the trigger or you with your Jedi powers do not will the gun to fire.

​

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Is that a problem with what I've seen referred to as head spacing?

I would say that the inertia firing pin is more the cause. Everytime you load an AR-15 (1911, 870, P7, inter alia) the firing pin has the opportunity to spring forward and strike the primer.

It does not happen that often but when it does it makes a big mess. Why? Because people do not follow the Four Rules when loading/unloading because they do not think guns can do this.

They can. INGO needs to be prepared so we do not set each other or ourselves on fire.

 

[Benny]

Thanks for the reminder, Kirk.

I agree that almost every "accident" is due to negligence, but ADs can happen...They are just VERY rare.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I agree that almost every "accident" is due to negligence, but ADs can happen

Without question and the media mischaracterization really upsets most gun owners, however we should be aware that ADs happen. Since ADs happen what can we do as a gun culture to mitigate the damage.

 

[Larryjr]

Again, for the umpteenth time, when you load and unload there is nothing magical about parking lots. Parking lots do not possess force fields.

If someone tells you to "just unload it in the parking lot" ask if you have use his car as a backstop.

Guns go bang. It's their only job.

If you have to jack with the gun, ensure that you have a safe fiddle area and follow the Four Rules.

If you do not you can shoot your grandson in the head:

Boy shot at Cabela’s - KansasCity.com

I truly appreciate you bringing this up. I didn't realize all the things that have been pointed out in this thread.

 

[Benny]

Without question and the media mischaracterization really upsets most gun owners, however we should be aware that ADs happen. Since ADs happen what can we do as a gun culture to mitigate the damage.

Like you said, all guns are always loaded...In this story, the gun was ACTUALLY loaded.

Thank God the child is going to be alright...It could have been much worse.

 

[Sylvain]

Without question and the media mischaracterization really upsets most gun owners, however we should be aware that ADs happen. Since ADs happen what can we do as a gun culture to mitigate the damage.

I agree.Kirk is a really wise man (when it comes to sand barrels and AD/ND anyway ).

Most shooters know about ND but not many know (or dont want to know) about AD.

Both can happen even if it's true that 99% of so called "AD" are in fact ND, and real AD are quite rare.

 

[GBuck]

Rob, for the love of God. It can happen. I have personally been on the firing line with a few LEOs that were qualifying with BRAND NEW Smith ARs. Guess what, on the line, rifle is loaded. Refile is charged. Rifle fires while on safety and at the officers side. 3 rounds into the gravel 6 feet in front of him. It happens.