WOW,
talk about thread resurrection!?!?
2009?
wow....
I did enjoy the video again though.
You know, IF all the things that SEAL assumed were correct (I put two of these in your heart and one in your head), then he'd be right.
But the penetration of most 9mm round doesn't always guarantee that they will actually get to your heart.
Agent Dove's 9mm shot from his S&W 459 in the 1986 Miami shootout would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further. (It was a side shot that entered the right side of his chest cavity).
In this case, Platt knew the difference between 9mm and perhaps some other caliber, because the 9mm let him continue fighting.
Agent Dove was killed.
THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.
One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.
I personally don't consider anything smaller than .380ACP to be worth considering for a protection role.
Yes, .25s and .32s can kill someone, just as .22LR can. But CAN kill someone and WILL are often miles apart. Usually that difference is shot placement, but caliber matters. It's not the only thing, and it's not everything, but it DOES matter.
THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.
One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.
Didn't the FBI go to 10mm-1076 Smiths after the shootout? The 40S&W(small and weak) exists because the 10mm was too much gun for them FBI girly-men and S&W had to come up with something for them to shoot to keep the contract. Thus, the 10mm short was born.
Ever notice how the 9mm and .45 guys are real vocal, but the .40 crowd just flies under the radar? Jess askin'?
You know, IF all the things that SEAL assumed were correct (I put two of these in your heart and one in your head), then he'd be right.
But the penetration of most 9mm round doesn't always guarantee that they will actually get to your heart.
Agent Dove's 9mm shot from his S&W 459 in the 1986 Miami shootout would have incapacitated Platt had it penetrated further. (It was a side shot that entered the right side of his chest cavity).
In this case, Platt knew the difference between 9mm and perhaps some other caliber, because the 9mm let him continue fighting.
Agent Dove was killed.
THIS shot-- this specific shot is what drove the FBI to consider a different caliber. All of the rest of the FBI Miami shootout was an argument for moving to automatics instead of revolvers. But Dove's shot was the reason they considered a new caliber as well, not just moving to an existing 9mm or .45 ACP auto.
One COULD argue credibly that this shot from Agent Dove is the reason the .40 S&W exists. It was the genesis for all the events that led to the creation of the .40S&W.
I personally don't consider anything smaller than .380ACP to be worth considering for a protection role.
Yes, .25s and .32s can kill someone, just as .22LR can. But CAN kill someone and WILL are often miles apart. Usually that difference is shot placement, but caliber matters. It's not the only thing, and it's not everything, but it DOES matter.
When all factors are considered, along with all the "yes, buts" "howevers," "on the other hands", there isn't any material difference among the 9, the .40, and the .45 when using ammunition that passes the FBI protocols for terminal performance.
One important factor to consider:Those two factors are independent--one is not controlled or impacted by the other. However, almost without fail, any discussion of caliber/ammunition introduces shot placement, but caliber/ammuniiton is not a function of training and vice versa.
- Caliber and ammunition are technical issues, while
- Shot placement is a training issue.
Ballistic gel is homogeneous. Bodies are not.
Actually, the full-house 10mm was never tested in the formal comparison and never issued for duty. The whole thing about wimpy Fibbies is a myth.
The reality is that the FBI had substantial data that said a faster round didn't really do much more than increase recoil. Thus, the original 10mm the FBI tested was already the "Fbi-Lite" load that was subsonic, and a far cry below the full-house Norma pressure levels (which would indicate 1200fps for a 200gr bullet). By comparison, the FBI load is 180gr @950fps.
The FBI had been evaluating the 10mm separately in another research program, and had concluded that the overall performance was excellent, but that "the high chamber pressures generated by the commercial loadings, with the resultant heavy recoil and muzzle blast, tended to offset the otherwise excellent performance of the round. Thefore the FBi Firearms Training Unit (FTU) decided to create a new loading for the 10mm, one with velocities comparable to those of competing 9mm and .45 cartridges. A 180gr hollowpoint bullet was acquired and loaded to a velocity of 950 fps. This not only matched the velocities of the other two cartridges, but dramatically reduced recoil and muzzle blast."
(FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin announcing the 10mm, Nov, 1989-- pages 6 and 7)
Not coincidentally are the current .40SW loadings in 180gr almost exact duplicates of the original FBI-lite loads.
Repeat-- the FBI *never* intended to use full power 10mm, and never issued such to ANY field agents. It was essentially .40SW all along.
Jeez, guys; I thought everyone carried a 1911 .45ACP, a SIG P228 9mm and a S&W Bodyguard .380 - use the right tool for the right job!