Unreasonable to ask for signed bill of sale on private gun sale?

[Lost Californian]

A bill of sale always seemed to me, to be a logical thing. Not from the BATFE, or gun law liability angle, but from pure business sense. When both the buyer and seller have signed copies of a transaction, there is proof of what transpired, who paid whom how much, for exactly what, in what condition. No argument. If someone later feels ripped off, the bill of sale is a good place to start.
We do that for the sale of other valuable items which we sell or buy, right? Do those reasons go away when it's a firearm being exchanged?

Do you do this for all the yard sale items you sell? If not, why not.

 

[1775usmarine]

CYA just like everyone else is saying. Makes you look better when you can pull it out when the wallet police...I mean police are at your door.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Makes you look better when you can pull it out .

 

[rvb]

each time I ask the buyer to sign a bill of sale which includes the date, purchase price, manufacturer, model, and serial number of the firearm.
....
I do not go so far as to check their ID, so I have no idea if they are who they say they are but at least I would have something with their signature on it.

It IS your responsibility to ensure the person is an IN resident. You are NOT doing the part you are obligated to do by law, but doing nonsense that is not required. I likely would give you false information just to mess with you if you didn't look at my ID.

You should check ID for proper residency, then if you want to do more, that's up to you. I might sign something w/ the info you mentioned above (most likely say "no thanks"), but I would definitely NOT give you my contact information, address, etc.

I have documented ONE private transfer... that was from a relative and we did it to ensure no other family member tried to later claim I shouldn't have the guns (they didn't want some other familiy member saying "hey, I wondered what happened to uncle timmy's guns when he died... why do YOU have them all?"). We had that notorized.

I've only sold to people I know... usually with a "here ya go, send me a check when you get around to it" agreement. Never any paper/pen involved (except to a friend out of state which req'd FFL in the middle).

-rvb

 

[rvb]

FYI:

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-21.pdf

-rvb

 

[LarryC]

If you feel the need for one, fine. Your sale your terms. However, I really can't see the point of it if you don't ask to see some ID. In my opinion that is much more important anyway , to verify residence. A bill of sale is not required, but selling only to another resident is. And what's the point of Having a piece of paper with a fake name on it. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

I have to agree, although I do not sell many firearms. Did trade one last year. I only want to see an Indiana drivers license, that verifies residency and age. That is WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THE ATF. Any other information that is obtained is supercilious. As far as I know there is absolutely no "National stolen gun registry". Remember none of the firearms purchased from a dealer are checked as to history or being stolen.

If - which I would estimate as less than a .000000000000099% chance, you are stopped and have a firearm that you purchased you would have any problem. I doubt that, unless there is something other than a normal traffic stop (you are intoxicated, on drugs, tried to outrun the police or some other infraction) that any LEO would "run the serial number to see if it is stolen". (LEO's welcome to jump in with information).

If it is checked by a LEO for serial number and was found to be stolen, I doubt it would cost you anything more than a few questions and the firearm. Even if you have a notarized bill of sale or a receipt from a GS, you would still lose the firearm and probably still have to answer some questions.

I don't care if a person has a LTCH, I know several people that have firearms that don't carry (like 3 sisters and BILs), that still may want to purchase another firearm. I sure don't feel like I should be like the ATF and limit their 2nd amendment rights, nor does the ATF or state laws require me to do that.

 

[schafe]

Do you do this for all the yard sale items you sell? If not, why not.

I don't have yard sales, but anything I buy or sell that has substantial value, of course.
Low value things...that $2.00 item from the yard sale-- not unless someone asks. But that $ 100.00 Maytag at that same yard sale--yes. It's much less likely that unresolveable differences might arise from the sale of that $2.00 item.
A bill of sale doesn't need to be complicated, or full of legalese, just a record of the sale.

 

[92ThoStro]

I gave up on the thread after multiple people talked about being the last registered owner.

I don't know what you people are smoking, but none of my guns are registered with anybody.

EDIT: RVB no, you have no requirement and nor are you responsible for to do anything.

You are not required to check ID. Where are you people getting this from?

The law prohibits you from intentionally selling to an excluded person. If they don't give you a reason to believe they are an excluded person, it is a legit sale. It doesn't matter if they turn out to be felons or non-residents if they deceived you. Just like you can't be charged with 1st degree murder for a form of negligent homicide. Intent is everything.

Why not go as far as to do background checks on everybody you sell a gun to privately?

Heck, why not just require all private sales to go through an FFL like in CA.

That way we can know for sure they are not felons, and are residents

I don't check ID or LTCH nor do I give them. Nor have my previous private sellers asked to see either from me. So so far, no problems.

If I wanted to buy a gun illegally I would do so with a fake ID anyways.

 

[92ThoStro]

Also, Larry C, I don't know where you came up with it, but the BATFE does not require you to check someones drivers license for age and residency.

The law says you cannot knowingly sell to an excluded individual.

Even if you sold a gun to a 17 year old felon from Canada who had a fake ID and said he was an IN resident, it wouldn't matter. You didn't intentionally do it.

There is no requirement to ask for ID

 

[rvb]

EDIT: RVB no, you have no requirement and nor are you responsible for to do anything.

You are not required to check ID. Where are you people getting this from?

The law prohibits you from intentionally selling to an excluded person.

You are right... the law does not require you to check ID; no where did I say it did. Don't put words in my mouth. What I said:

It IS your responsibility to ensure the person is an IN resident.

It is illegal to sell to a person who resides in another state. The easiest way to ensure you are not violating this law is to verify the buyer has a photo ID issued by the state. that's all I'm saying you should check for is residency, because that is the law. If you know the buyer is a resident of the same state as you by other means (buyer is a friend/relative/co-worker, whatever), then there is no reason to ask for an ID...

"I didn't know" isn't an excuse for most law violations, so I can't imagine "I didn't know he lived in Ohio; he was at the Indy gun show!" would be an excuse for breaking this law.

"I didn't know he was a fellon" is acceptable if you have no reason to believe the person to be a prohibited person.

-rvb

ps:
Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons | ATF

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.
...
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

edit: willing to stand corrected:
from the law:

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful -
...
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides

It appears that in the law similar wording exists regarding "reasonable cause to believe" for residency as prohibited persons. So long as you dont have reason to believe they are out of state, you are covered legally. The wording in the FAQ doesn't really mirror the law.

-rvb

 

[Rexmage]

Its just a good idea. If they are a reasonable person they'll sign it. It covers you and the person you're selling it to.

Would said person rather they not sign anything and then take off, then have someone call the police and say they got ripped off in the sale? Robbed or something. Its best for everyone.

 

[2cool9031]

Bottom Line...your firearm...your rules.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Won't make someone else do it, won't do it. If I'm selling, I ask for IN ID. Once I verify that, and the buyer is over 18, it's sold.

Not sure why anyone needs a BoS. It's BS to me.

 

[bingley]

What is the big deal? You sign your receipt whenever you pay with a credit card. Heck, in restaurants sometimes the receipt even shows what you had that evening. Don't forget about those digital signatures at supermarkets. I'm sure your digitally reproducible signatures are stored somewhere on a computer you don't control. Signatures mean a lot less than they used to.

We're arguing about this because of a hypersensitivity about any legal or legal-ish (not actually legal) stuff about guns. There is nothing stopping me from writing a bill of sale if I sell you my broken lawnmower for parts. I even remember going to this very old-fashioned bookstore that draws up a signed bill of sale for book purchases. (Needless to say, the staff wore bow ties.) Let's stop arguing about this and start arguing about OP's wife's hotness. That's a more productive area of discussion.

 

[Jerchap2]

I have sold several guns privately in Indiana over the years, and each time I ask the buyer to sign a bill of sale which includes the date, purchase price, manufacturer, model, and serial number of the firearm. I do this for handguns and long guns as well. I know it is not required in Indiana for a purchaser in a private gun sale to sign anything. I require it so that in the unlikely event in the future that the police knock on my door and tell me a gun I owned was used in a crime, I can hand them something showing I do not own it anymore.

Most of the time the buyer kindly reminds me that a bill of sale is not required in Indiana on private gun sales, but I tell them I want it anyway and they have signed it every time. I do not go so far as to check their ID, so I have no idea if they are who they say they are but at least I would have something with their signature on it.

The only negative feedback I ever got asking for a signature was when I sold a gun to a police officer who was checking guns going into the 1500 a few years back. He gave me a dirty look and mumbled something under his breath, but he did sign it. I almost did not ask him to sign it, but I asked anyway since I had no idea if he would ever sell it in the future.

Am I being unreasonable asking for private gun buyers to sign a bill of sale? Are others doing this as well?

I think this makes sense. It is just to protect the seller, as you say, in the unlikely event that the firearm is used in a crime and has your name on the registration. I think it is a reasonable request, and, in fact, had the seller of a rifle I bought in a private sale ask the same thing. I signed it and did not bat an eye.

 

[Jerchap2]

Won't make someone else do it, won't do it. If I'm selling, I ask for IN ID. Once I verify that, and the buyer is over 18, it's sold.

Not sure why anyone needs a BoS. It's BS to me.

If you sell to someone who looks OK, with just seeing an ID, then they go and use the gun they bought to commit a crime, and the police recover it and come knocking on your door, what a hassle that would be. You would **probably** come out clean, but only after a lot of time and anguish. I say ask for the signature -- it protects you from going through that ordeal. JMHO.

 

[CPT Nervous]

If you sell to someone who looks OK, with just seeing an ID, then they go and use the gun they bought to commit a crime, and the police recover it and come knocking on your door, what a hassle that would be. You would **probably** come out clean, but only after a lot of time and anguish. I say ask for the signature -- it protects you from going through that ordeal. JMHO.

Why would they come to me? They would have no means to track the gun to me.

 

[Jerchap2]

Why would they come to me? They would have no means to track the gun to me.

If the gun you purchased was from a gun store (FFL), it would be registered in your name, and they would have that info. If it was from a private seller, that would be a different story.

 

[SmithGuy]

Why would they come to me? They would have no means to track the gun to me.

If a round was fired from a rare gun, I have heard of the police finding out if anyone in the area bought that type of firearm. Even if local law enforcement does not have access to registration data, I bet the federal govt does.

 

[Jerchap2]

If a round was fired from a rare gun, I have heard of the police finding out if anyone in the area bought that type of firearm. Even if local law enforcement does not have access to registration data, I bet the federal govt does.

Unfortunately, the Feds have WAY too much info. Good point.