Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

[CPT Nervous]

?
How do you make a cop change a light bulb.
?
I'm confused.

These people aren't the brightest. No pun intended.

 

[actaeon277]

I didn't get that either, but that was the goal. I'll see if I can find an MP3. Of the show.

I'm not doubting you.

I'm just confused.

Like as if someone said 1 plus 1 is purple fanzil on the donkey kong.

 

[vitamink]

http://cf-media.sndcdn.com/sPjcNivq...4mhRMSr-0w__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJAGZ7VMH2PFPW6UQ

fast forward to 21:30 for the "we were trying to get pulled over by..."
start from the beginning if you want the whole story

 

[GlockRock]

I will ask again. Why are so many people flashing their light at the LEO on that night. He pulled over 2 others for flashing their lights before he pulled over the kid.

I'm not sure what vehicle the LEO had, but our new Ford Interceptor SUV's have really bright lights in them. Several of us are getting flashed nightly with them on dim.

 

[foszoe]

How many cops does it take to change a light bulb anyway?

 

[CPT Nervous]

How many cops does it take to change a light bulb anyway?

That's good.

 

[T.Lex]

I accept that the ultimate shoot was defensible.

From the LEOs, though, I'm interested in "lessons learned." How would YOU have handled the stop? Exactly the same?

We will never know if it would have made any difference, ultimately, but I believe this tragedy can serve a better purpose. Maybe even should.

 

[phylodog]

I don't know what people expect from LE today. If it is to back down and walk away from people who do not wish to be subjected to the law, regardless of how insignificant they feel that particular law may be, then I obviously need to retire as soon as it is possible.

 

[foszoe]

I don't know what people expect from LE today. If it is to back down and walk away from people who do not wish to be subjected to the law, regardless of how insignificant they feel that particular law may be, then I obviously need to retire as soon as it is possible.

Do your job professionally

That's what people expect

The vocal fringes notwithstanding.

 

[HoughMade]

There's this inherent tension. Sure the underlying infraction may not be a big deal, but when the subject starts acting real hinky and unreasonable, wouldn't it be natural to think that something else may be going on? So rather than just send him on his way, you do what you can, legally, even if it looks a little harsh for a minor traffic infraction. Then the guy gets belligerent, which may make you even more suspicious. We used to call taking a minor stop and using it to find evidence of a more serious crime "good police work". And how many situations have we heard about where a murderer, kidnapper, rapist, whatever, was stopped for a traffic infraction and then sent down the road because the cops had no idea what was going on?

Well, sometimes a guy acts irrationally and get belligerent and violent because they're a jerk or altered by some substance (waiting to hear any news there may be on this) and there is no bigger crime.

Even though I get paid decently to armchair quarterback professionally, I don't think I can in this case. We all would have preferred a different outcome, but we don't have the luxury of seeing the result first and then going to back to see what we can do differently. I have a hard time, at each given step along the way, saying the cop was wrong. Sure, maybe he could have done something differently, but that doesn't mean at the time he was wrong to do what he did.

This: "he got shot for flashing his lights" makes for grat clckbait if you're putting an article up on facebook or twitter....but don't mistake such a headline for intelligent discourse.

 

[vitamink]

http://www.eatoncounty.org/images/D...ney/Press_Releases/Guilford_Press_Release.pdf

some interesting facts:

parents say say the kid had been focused on YouTube cop block videos.

the kid had weed and caffeine in his system.

the cop WAS driving an SUV as suggested by another poster (good job!)

the he guy he stopped before stopping the kid got a warning

The cops gun jammed initially

 

[T.Lex]

I don't know what people expect from LE today. If it is to back down and walk away from people who do not wish to be subjected to the law, regardless of how insignificant they feel that particular law may be, then I obviously need to retire as soon as it is possible.

At this point, all I'm interested in is how Indy-area LEO would handle it.

I have some ideas that would have helped, although it may not have ended any differently. But, I'm not a professional LEO, only the armchair amateur kind.

The dearth in this thread of any "I would've done it this way...." is disconcerting. It either means the LEOs support the action or aren't willing to criticize the actions of this specific LEO in this specific situation.

The cops gun jammed initially

Pure speculation, at least one report made it sound like the officer placed the gun in contact with the kid's chest. If it was a downward angle, I wonder if it pushed the slide back just enough to "jam." To me, that's not really a "jam" just a "didn't fire when I thought it would."

 

[phylodog]

What do you want to know T. Lex? If I would back down and walk away if I conduct a traffic stop an the driver of the vehicle decides they don't want to play? The answer is no.

Which actions would you like criticized?

 

[T.Lex]

What do you want to know T. Lex? If I would back down and walk away if I conduct a traffic stop an the driver of the vehicle decides they don't want to play? The answer is no.

Which actions would you like criticized?

[sarcasm alert]
Yes, I expect every officer to walk away from someone who refuses to cooperate.



Gimme a break.

Here it is in simple terms: would you have done exactly the same thing as this officer, at every step of the way? (Not just you, any other LEO, too.) Is there absolutely no other way to do this? Is there maybe... just MAYBE... a way to do this where both individuals make it home? (Well, one of them probably after a stay in the local jail, but you know what I mean.)

As you may know, in the past I have had a small role in training some LEOs. If I ever have that opportunity again, I'd like to present this video. At each incremental stage, the officer was within his training (I suspect). But, that doesn't make the result predestined. Or does it?

 

[JettaKnight]

There are so many things I want to say about this... too many are unsafe to write...

Clearly a case of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes". Why is he questioning the officer like that? The officer was in uniform and in a marked vehicle. And, did he think he would win a fistfight?

It's impossible to watch this (and read the report) and not think that the cop-baiting crowd had a influence on this teen and gave him a warped sense of reality.

The sentiment of, "I must record this" is dumb. It was one of the factors at play here. It's a factor when people stand in a circle recording a tragedy instead of helping. Instead of having fun at a party people are too busy recording.



PS - Inquiring minds want to know: Was Sgt. Frost's vehicle ever checked for headlight alignment after this fateful night?

PPS - Do any of the officers here receive any training on how to deal with the cop-baiting wackadoos out there?

 

[phylodog]

[sarcasm alert]

Here it is in simple terms: would you have done exactly the same thing as this officer, at every step of the way? (Not just you, any other LEO, too.) Is there absolutely no other way to do this? Is there maybe... just MAYBE... a way to do this where both individuals make it home? (Well, one of them probably after a stay in the local jail, but you know what I mean.)

I cannot say, no one can. I have pointed out to every person on my agency that unless I was that officer on that day I cannot say with any level of certainty whether I would have handled things the same way he did. Any attempts to claim otherwise are BS. I don't have the same training that officer did, our experiences are different, state laws are different, department policies are different. Was this incident out of character for this officer? Was he typically more patient than he was on this stop, more patient? There are too many variables.

The legitimate questions are:

Was the force used reasonable under the law and department policy/training?
Did this incident expose a weakness or problem with the policy/training which needs to be addressed?

 

[T.Lex]

I cannot say, no one can. I have pointed out to every person on my agency that unless I was that officer on that day I cannot say with any level of certainty whether I would have handled things the same way he did. Any attempts to claim otherwise are BS. I don't have the same training that officer did, our experiences are different, state laws are different, department policies are different. Was this incident out of character for this officer? Was he typically more patient than he was on this stop, more patient? There are too many variables.

In terms of training, doctrine and decency, that is a cop-out (pardon the pun).

The legitimate questions are:

Was the force used reasonable under the law and department policy/training?
Did this incident expose a weakness or problem with the policy/training which needs to be addressed?

Care to answer #2?

I think we can agree that, under most local jurisdictions' current training, each incremental escalation can be defended. Which leaves #2. Because, under basically the same training and policies, if it can happen "there," it can happen "here." If it happened here, does it call to mind any policies/training that might be reassessed?

 

[foszoe]

I'll throw my unqualified answer. Tazer training. Sounds like effective range training might have helped

In terms of training, doctrine and decency, that is a cop-out (pardon the pun).


Care to answer #2?

I think we can agree that, under most local jurisdictions' current training, each incremental escalation can be defended. Which leaves #2. Because, under basically the same training and policies, if it can happen "there," it can happen "here." If it happened here, does it call to mind any policies/training that might be reassessed?

 

[phylodog]

In terms of training, doctrine and decency, that is a cop-out (pardon the pun).

We can agree to disagree. I don't participate in or condone armchair quarterbacking. Cops aren't robots and reactions aren't always predictable. I have good days and bad days and there is a pretty wide path through law and policy which allows for many different things to occur without violating either.

Care to answer #2?

I think we can agree that, under most local jurisdictions' current training, each incremental escalation can be defended. Which leaves #2. Because, under basically the same training and policies, if it can happen "there," it can happen "here." If it happened here, does it call to mind any policies/training that might be reassessed?

Not that I see. As you said, each incremental escalation can be defended. You cannot look at just the outcome, determine it to be distasteful and go back searching for a way to find fault with the officer. No one wants to see kids killed, I get that. That does not change the facts in this case. I don't see where this officer violated any policies and law had he been on my agency and I see no need for changing them based on the outcome. I'm willing to listen to suggestions you would have.

 

[phylodog]

I'll throw my unqualified answer. Tazer training. Sounds like effective range training might have helped

I'll agree with this, he probably should have removed the cartridge and utilized it via direct contact given the proximity.