Indiana Knife Law: stop the misinformation!

[Cygnus]

Yep.The misunderstanding here is that what ASP refers to is as condition B refers to a "ballistic knife" There's another thread covering this somewhere. The above 2 posts basically sum it up.
If there's any doubts notice the word "propelled" and it's definition VS "opens"

 

[kevinj110]

Thats what I am thinking also. I saw one of those propelled russian knives on that show warrior clash or what ever it is on Spike TV.

 

[ASP]

THIS IS A COPY FROM ONE OF THE BIG SPORTING GOODS CHAIN’S WEB SITE.
YOUR ATTENTION IS DIRECTED TO THE WORDING USED WITH “PROPELLED”.
SOG®'s Trident tanto knife is designed with a Groove™ in the handle, allowing you to cut paracord or fishing line without having to open the blade; the handle also includes a Digi-Grip™ variable pattern for coarser grip in areas that require it. A bayonet-style clip is easily switched for right- or left-hand carry, or removed for pouch storage.


Features

• SOG® trident tanto knife
• Model Number: TF-6
• Straight edge
• Satin finish
• AUS 8 steel
• Zytel® handle
• SOG® Assisted Technology: Works through the balance of opposing high-tension coil springs; blade is propelled open once you've initiated one-handed opening action
• Arc-Actuator™ Allows a strong lock and easy release
• Built-in safety locks blade closed
• Groove™ in the handle allows you to cut lines without opening the blade
• Digi-Grip™ variable pattern for coarser grip
• Bayonet-style clip is easily switched for right/left hand carry, or removed for pouch storage
• Blade Length: 3.75"
• Overall Length: 8.5"
• Weight: 3.6 oz

 

[cubby]

you can't quote marketing hype as law. and besides.

blade is propelled open once you've initiated one-handed opening action




you don't "initiate" a automatic knife. you release it. you "activate" the mechanism. we are dinking with semantics, here. the assisted knives are perfectly legal, and honestly, it goes in the face of this thread, and serves to instill MORE MISINFORMATION in the minds of indiana residents. if they were illegal Walmart, Kmart, Dicks, Target, and the like would NOT sell them in indiana. and it would be blaized across the internet in bright orange, and would be COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

i don't mean to be a jerk, but you are wrong. they straight LIED to you about the law.

 

[Serial Crusher]

Well, just like a lot of other things, it isn't our decision. It also is not the attorney general's decision. It is the decision of a jury, and juries make some really wild conclusions. A prosecutor can level charges that may seem unreasonable, but if the jury buys it that's all that's needed. I remember someone trying to sell a worn out AR that was later found to be a machine gun..... A lot of products are sold as legal for quite a while that are later decided to be illegal, witness the Akins Accelerator.

I don't think it's illegal, but I don't carry an assisted knife. I do own one, a CRKT Mini My Tighe. Whether or not it's illegal is an important question, I don't feel they are, but I don't want to expose myself to risk through others ignorance.

 

[ASP]

I’M SENSING THAT IT’S BEING PERCEIVED THAT I ESPOUSE THE POSITION I LAYED OUT FOR THE FORUM. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. I’D LIKE TO HAVE A COUPLE OF ‘ASSISTED’ KNIVES, BUT HAVING BEEN BRIEFED AS TO THE AG’S POSITION, I JUST CAN’T IGNORE THAT INFO.
I DID FIND A PROPOSED CHANGE TO THE KNIFE LAW THAT WAS ENTERED IN ’08, BUT IT DIDN’T MAKE TO WHERE IT WOULD BE VOTED ON. IT’S VERY CLEAR IN THAT PROPOSED CHANGE THAT THE AUTHOR’S REFERENCE IS AIMED AT ‘BALLISTIC’ KNIVES/BLADES ONLY.
HERE’S THE REFERENCE:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2008/SB/SB0085.1.html
REMEMBER THIS WAS A PROPOSAL. IT WAS NOT VOTED ON. IT’S NOT LAW.
I’M WITH YOU AWAITING WHAT THE AG HAS TO SAY.

 

[cubby]

ASP,

i COMPETELY believe that you don't support what you were told, i just think you were lied to. whether or not it was intentional when they told you, i don't know. it falls out like this: there are still people who believe fully automatic or supressed firearms are illegal to own. though they are perfectly legal, some people believe, with 100% certianty, that they are illegal.

i still haven't heard from the AG. i may just break down and call on monday or wednesday.

again, i don't think for a SECOND you are saying that you support what you were told. if someone told me it was cloudy out, i would be inclined to believe them.

 

[kevinj110]

I get to work today and my co-worker Kyle who is from the Bloomington area has bought a new Assisted SOG Trident and where did he get this knife? Well Dicks in Bloomington. So I check at WalMart here in Franklin they have 3 different assisted knives for sale. ASP I get you were told what you were told but they are wrong. I have carried my ZT302 everyday since I bought it, Shown it to everyone including LEOs they are and always have been 100% legal to own, use, have.

 

[KokomoDave]

ASP,I am a reserve police officer and have been thru ILEA's full course.There is NO reason to believe that any knife other than a switchblade and ballistic knife is illegal in Indiana.There are certain officers/muncipalities/chiefs of police that DON'T want you to have an assisited open knife.They ARE ignorant of the law and WANT you to believe them due to their own personal agenda.I believe in the letter of the law and let the prosecutor's office/legislature/courts decide gray areas.This is NOT a gray area tho.

 

[milltech]

I'm a fan of fixed blades. I do have a few folding knives though.

 

[Indy317]

I have debated this issue, even with LEOs, about the legality of assisted knives.

Here is the law, put together as a complete sentence:

IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that may be propelled by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

Now, I break down the sentence as follows:

It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that may be propelled by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

For someone to break the law, the knife needs to meet all these different highlighted actions and requirments. To me, if you use a button/switch, anything, that is built into the handle of a knife, and using that button/switch moves the blade at all...you are breaking the law. The reason I come to this conclusion is because that Indiana law doesn't define "propelled" that I know of. As such, most people (and judges) will turn to common law definitions of words when making arguments/judgments on an issue. A common definition of the word "propelled" is: To cause to move forward or onward.

If the blade moves even a fraction of an inch to the open, and that force is caused by anything built into the handle of the knife, you could end up going to jail. A co-worker has an assisted knife, however the handle is plain, the "button" or "lever" is actually part of the blade. It isn't built into the handle. Now, there maybe some sort of spring in the handle, but even that could be argued that since the handle is mostly two pieces with a large gap, the spring is actually not in the handle. Also, even if the spring is part of the handle, there is no "hand pressure" applied to anything "in" the handle. The "hand pressure" consist of a finger push to a part of the blade. I don't see his knife being illegal.

To me, the following knife would be illegal to own in Indiana, as the "button" is clearly "in" the handle. If one applies "hand pressure" to that "button" or switch (which then falls under "other") and that causes the blade to move at all...that blade has just been propelled.

TF-6 SOG Trident Knife (Tanto Satin) - Blade HQ

People had best use serious caution on these "assisted" knives. The word propelled can mean "moves a millimeter." It doesn't have to propel the blade forward, or straight, it just has to propel it. I do think that eventually we will likely see some appeals court ruling on this issue. The thing is, why even risk it? Is saving a fraction of a second opening a knife blade really worth maybe facing criminal charges?

There are certain officers/muncipalities/chiefs of police that DON'T want you to have an assisited open knife.They ARE ignorant of the law and WANT you to believe them due to their own personal agenda.I believe in the letter of the law and let the prosecutor's office/legislature/courts decide gray areas.This is NOT a gray area tho.

The only gray area is how is your blade is "propelled." If it has to do with touching _anything_ "in" the handle, I believe the person is risking arrest. The self-assisted SOG knife I posted a link to easily fits the category of an illegal knife in Indiana. Eventually the courts might rule the law too vague, but someone already tried the "unconstitutional" route, and that didn't work. These self-assisted knives with devices built on and/or in the handle, where you apply some sort of pressure and that causes the blade to move at all would illeagal in my opinion, given the way the reads and that Indiana Code doesn't define propelled. I just don't want to give people a false impression. Discussing that gray area in a court could end up costing someone their freedom and/or money. At a bare minimum, there is easily probable cause to arrest someone for having that SOG knife above. So even if the courts throw the case out for vaugness, etc., don't expect to get some sort of lawsuit to cover your legal bills.

If you folks want to fix this law, there is a very simple fix to keep some assisted knives legal. Have someone add a definition to this law that "propelled", for that section of code, means a force that fully extends the blade into the fully open and locked position.

 

[Indy317]

his "position" can be want ever he wants. but the fact is the law is written the way it is written. option #3 only applies to "propelled"blades.

IC 35-47-5-2
Knife with blade that opens automatically or may be propelled
Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled;
by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

I disagree. Option #3 applies to both "opens automatically" and "may be propelled." If they wanted spring to only apply to (2), it would have been written as such:

Sec. 2. It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that:
(1) opens automatically; or
(2) may be propelled by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

The simple use of the "or" and ; after "propelled" means everything at the end applies to both (1) and (2).

OR

It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

and

It is a Class B misdemeanor for a person to manufacture, possess, display, offer, sell, lend, give away, or purchase any knife with a blade that may be propelled by hand pressure applied to a button, device containing gas, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife.

If there's any doubts notice the word "propelled" and it's definition VS "opens"

Where is propelled defined? I couldn't find a definition in the Indiana Code.

I know it seems silly to base something being legal to own on who sells it but I hardly believe these stores would sell them, and they do. If there was any chance of them being illegal. I mean Wal-Mart has one of the largest law teams in the world.

Just because someone is a "lawyer" means nothing. I have two stories that would totally blow people away that deal with lawyers. Trust me, all it takes is for some corporate lawyer telling some fresh out of law school newbie to look into the issue. Hell, for all we know, all these stores submitted a question to the AG of the state, who forwarded it to some pool lawyer who isn't the brightest (hence why they are working for the state at $40K/year instead of making huge money out on their own).

Any of these assisted open blades where you apply any pressure to any button or switch built in or upon the handle which will cause the blade to move at all would easily fit under the law. I do feel the intent of the law was to ban those knives in which blades become fully extended out _and_ locked, at the ready, by touching a button. However, until I see "propelled" defined that specifically in the code, the general definition applies...and that just means to move, no set distance, no set direction...just movement.

 

[KokomoDave]

Indy317,
The SOG knife you referenced DOESN"T use anything in the handle to start the movement of the blade to overcome the spring pressure keeping the blade in the 'closed' position.The item you see in the handle is the ARC LOCK.It has NOTHING to do with initiating the forward momentum of the blade.

You are obviously not going to carry an assisited knife and are currently too paranoid to do so.That's your perogative but you are trying to define something in the Indiana Criminal Code that doesn't exist.

I am done with your interpretations of the I.C. Code I enforce every day.

 

[KokomoDave]

If you folks want to fix this law, there is a very simple fix to keep some assisted knives legal. Have someone add a definition to this law that "propelled", for that section of code, means a force that fully extends the blade into the fully open and locked position.


Or join AKTI and they will fix it! They have gone to bat for knife owners in just about every state and took on Customs for the same assisted knives you talk about being somehow illegal that were about to not be importable and they WON!

 

[cubby]

ok. i'm done being correct.

you are flat WRONG. stop posting what YOU consider to be fact. because your wrong. i wonder WHY no one else has run in singing to the heavens that your correct. oh, becuase your wrong. assisted knives are perfectly legal in indiana.

there is no room for debate, or one side or another. there is law, and then there is what YOU think the law says. bottom line: if assisted knives were illegal in indiana, big box store would not carry them here. officers would be arresting people for carrying them, and then you would be seeing it splashed all over. but you don't.

this whole arguement is pretty ridiculous. you can argue semantics all you want. your still wrong.


and honestly, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to knives.

 

[kevinj110]

Cubby I thank you for standing up for what is legal and right. Reps to you.

 

[Indy317]

Indy317,
The SOG knife you referenced DOESN"T use anything in the handle to start the movement of the blade to overcome the spring pressure keeping the blade in the 'closed' position.The item you see in the handle is the ARC LOCK.It has NOTHING to do with initiating the forward momentum of the blade.

You are obviously not going to carry an assisited knife and are currently too paranoid to do so.That's your perogative but you are trying to define something in the Indiana Criminal Code that doesn't exist.

I am done with your interpretations of the I.C. Code I enforce every day.

Didn't know you were the supreme law of the land.

If that knife doesn't meet the code, great. If you re-read what I posted: "If one applies "hand pressure" to that "button" or switch (which then falls under "other") and that causes the blade to move at all...that blade has just been propelled." you will notice the key phrase "that causes." I wasn't for sure if that button was used for that.

I still stand behind my statement, and until some kind of appeals court or supreme court rules otherwise. If you can apply hand pressure to some sort of button or switch in the handle, and that causes the blade to be propelled, I believe the knife to be illegal.

Or join AKTI and they will fix it! They have gone to bat for knife owners in just about every state and took on Customs for the same assisted knives you talk about being somehow illegal that were about to not be importable and they WON!

OK. What Indiana cases have the won? Give me a court case based on Indiana law that clearly states these knives are legal.

there is law, and then there is what YOU think the law says. bottom line: if assisted knives were illegal in indiana, big box store would not carry them here. officers would be arresting people for carrying them, and then you would be seeing it splashed all over. but you don't.

this whole arguement is pretty ridiculous. you can argue semantics all you want. your still wrong.

and honestly, you don't know what your talking about when it comes to knives.

Give me the Indiana court case that ruled these knives legal. That is all I ask for. Until then, I feel that a police officer has probable cause to arrest someone based on the law as it is written. Are you telling me that the buttons/switches in these knives don't "propel" the blade at all?

As far as police officers arresting people, have you pulled _every_ arrest record in this state to back this statement up? I didn't think so. For all we know, people _have_ been arrested for having such knives and that have taken plea deals and went on with their life.

Yes, my opinion is based on my interpretation of the law, just like yours is. The thing is, unless you are a judge, your opinion means nothing to someone who gets arrested under this law. Until a court rules one way or another, I feel I am totally entitled to my opinion. You are posting what you consider facts based on what you "believe." You don't have every single arrest record in this state to prove that no one was been arrested for having such a knife. If you want to put your money where you mouth is, maybe you could post on here that you would be willing to cover any and all legal fees if someone were to get arrested with such a knife??

You folks are taking this way too personally, telling _everyone_ that your word is gospel on the matter, when not a one of you can post a court case here in this state clearly stating these knives are legal. We already had one poster here believe what he was told by a non-lawyer/non-judge about radio scanners in motor vehicles. He is now facing charges. Understand that just because I am urging caution doesn't mean I want these knives illegal. We have tons of people giving legal advice on unsettled law. This issue may go unsettled for the next five decades, but during that time, we could easily have people in various parts of the state getting arrested, taking their lawyers advice to plead guilty (be it to get probation, diversion, whatever).

I feel this is exactly why they are trying to change the law:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2009/PDF/IN/IN0046.1.pdf
Senate Bill 0085

Now, if the law was so clear, why the effort underway, not once, but twice, to change the law? Obviously there are others that believe as I do, and it appears they are trying to clear up the law to prevent people from being arrested with these assisted knives.

I am glad that so many people say they are legal. I just hope for the sake of someone taking those people's advice, they front the money for a crack defense team if that person gets arrested (or they at least donate to an organization that works these types of cases). So, how much money are you folks willing to shell out if someone comes on this board and provides proof they were arrested and now need money for a good defense attorney?

Nothing is "law" until judges rule on the law. Until this, it is always up for interpretation. Obviously our hope would be that when such a case is taken to the state appeals court, state supreme court, federal appeals court, or US supreme court, the AG, FOP, etc. are all there with their own legal briefs to support assisted knives and backing the person arrested.

 

[cubby]

Didn't know you were the supreme law of the land.





Give me the Indiana court case that ruled these knives legal. That is all I ask for. Until then, I feel that a police officer has probable cause to arrest someone based on the law as it is written. Are you telling me that the buttons/switches in these knives don't "propel" the blade at all?

bwahahahhaa!! troll. typical lawyer style here. you wanna prove your smart? here is a novel idea. how about you EDUCATE yourself on how knives operate, and check back after your reality check on how much you truly DON'T know set in.

the button on an automatic knife "propel" nothing. they RELEASE a spring or similar. they don't "propel" anything. i have yet to see a button "propel" anything, as you need a mechanism in place to do the work....

end of the day, here is what you are doing here: you bust in the door on a thread in what the laws are clearly spelled out (oh, and quote me ONE case, outside of a district which EXPRESSLY forbides assisted opening knives, like Carmel or similiar, in which a person has been assest in Indiana and charged for posession of an illegal knife, and THAT CHARGE has stuck?? where is it?? oh, yeah. hasn't happened.) to help others in the state. you bring doubt onto something which there is no doubt about. assisted knives are legal. you can twist it up, all you want lawyer man.... but you don't know what your talking about. you want someone to praise how intelligent you are? its not gonna be me. because, son, your wrong. twist it, turn it, flip it, burn it.... post as long and hard as you want... end of the day. show me the arrest that has STUCK on a person carrying an assisted knife in reguards to that said knife being ILLEGAL.

go ahead, i'll wait while you type up some "hypothetical" long winded post, with multiquotes and all your "supposing" and guess work. meanwhile, my life will remain unchanged by your lack of knowledge on subjects you preach upon, simple becuase you consider yourself educated enough to do so.

bottom line: put up or shut up. show me the case in which your side of "illegal" is supported. innocent until proven guilty, sir. now quote the case.

 

[cubby]

As far as police officers arresting people, have you pulled _every_ arrest record in this state to back this statement up? I didn't think so. For all we know, people _have_ been arrested for having such knives and that have taken plea deals and went on with their life.

plea deals? come on. you have to be kidding if you think i am stupid enough to confuse a plea deal with someone being proven guilty.

too anyone reading who MAY be confused: plea deals are general not an admition of guilt. and for the most part, for most law abidding citiziens, are either from long, EXPENSIVE drawn out court cases, or are used to save face or time, or whatever the case may be.

you are surely NOT giving the impression that anyone who have agreed to a "plea deal" is guilty of a supposed crime, are you?

 

[jeremy]

Indy317,

Show me where in writing it is illegal to possess assisted opening knives. That is all I would like to see, I have yet to see where that is specifically forbidden.

Thanks.