California NAACP wants to remove 'The Star-Spangled Banner' as national anthem

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That's a sidestep. My "all for you" quip was based on this:



So were talking about before any sort of armed conflict, prior to anyone trying to defeat anybody. You "hope" you would've helped slaves escape bondage (again prior to any hostilities), and yet have no reservations about shooting fight against the British during hostilities. It would appear you words indicate a willingness to defend freedom, based on who they are. I have no such reservations with either. Freedom for those in bondage is just as precious as freedom for those who fight to preserve their own.

This is so pedantic...

What I was saying is, I am trying to picture how my modern sensibilities would have worked if I were a person of that time. I was born in the south and grew up in the south. It's possible, I would have thought like a southerner of the time, if I was alive then. I am also a Christian and my understanding of biblical teachings would have meant that I would have been at odds with any number of people in the south at that time. I'm serious when I said I'd like to think I would have been one of the enlightened ones that would have assisted escape. But one thing that I think transcends that is that then or now, if I'd helped you escape and we were in some battle during that war and I saw you coming back at me with a rifle or bayonet, I would have had to kill you and would think I was justified in doing so.

As I said in a later post, those people did what they thought they had to do and if I were one of them, I might have made that same decision. But I don't think I would have expected to be welcomed back when the war was over. They chose to fight with the British and there are ramifications for that...they apparently thought it was worth it.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I'm not sure if this just a mindless post on your way to fifty, or if it is something ignorant of the modern slave trade.

I think it's a reference to massive debt

i've never met a true slave, that I know of.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Because they received welcoming open arms BEFORE? Am I in some sort of weird world where people believe slaves had it better before the war than afterwards?

No. Everything is a dog whistle or closet racist talk. Everybody is a racist even if they don't agree with you on the NA. When you see everything through that lens, that's what you're going to see.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think it's a reference to massive debt

i've never met a true slave, that I know of.

Nor I, but it doesn't negate that slavery is still a problem in third world countries and what's call "sex trafficking" is essentially slavery in the first world.

Furthermore, what the heck does that have to do with the discussion?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I think it's a reference to massive debt

i've never met a true slave, that I know of.

Yeah, more broadly I assumed it was a critique of Americans capitulating to ever growing government in the name of safety and security and yes -- a slave to the mounting debt as you said.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You know the German national anthem has all sorts of language promoting the nationalism that brought them shame. They simply don't sing that verse(s). The Russians simply changed the words of the USSR anthem.
Of course, both of those tunes are good!

My point is where does this all stop? When do we stop applying litmus tests to everything from the past? When will there be nothing left to throw out?


I still think it needs to go.

Stanza. They sing the third stanza of Das Lied Der Deutschen. The German National Anthem predates the Nazis, however, the words did not become familiar worldwide until, obviously, after radio and film. After the War, the words, to allied ears, still sounded (by words) like the "Nazi" song and was banned by the allies. In the 50s it was switched to the third Stanza of Das Lied Der Deutschen, which is referred to as Deutschlandlied. We don't know what the Germans would have done with their anthem, as obviously they were an occupied nation, and the allies were dictating the rules. However, you will find some Germans today who sing the original version, because it has no origins with the Nazis. Now Horst-Wessel Lied, named for a Nazi martyr, is all Nazi.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No. Everything is a dog whistle or closet racist talk. Everybody is a racist even if they don't agree with you on the NA. When you see everything through that lens, that's what you're going to see.

And when people get challenged based on bad logic, they throw out the "well, you think I'm a racist," victim card, to shut down the conversation. If you are ,own it, if you aren't create better arguments so you don't have backtrack and try to explain yourself. Because you DID call slaves that fought for their freedom "traitors." You DID say you "hope" you'd help slaves while having "no reservations" helping others fight for freedom. I guess I'm wrong for calling you out on that, and provided you the chance to say "well, you think I'm a racist" excuse 'eh?

 

[KLB]

Not really. If one cannot fathom the reasons why, a slave in the United States would want to be free, and openly encourage their killing as being a "good" thing, then that person is not only morally bankrupt, but a racist as well, given the details specific to the instance.

That is nonsense. There is no difference in wanting to kill those in the Corps of Colonial Marines than wanting to kill the British soldiers they were with. You can try to twist it however you like to fit your view that this is some deep seated racism, but there is very little to back up your claim.

Anyone fighting against the United States was an enemy. The reason they did so was irrelevant. Key wasn't referring to hunting down escaped slaves, and as I said, you have to try pretty hard to spin his words as racist.

What do you say of the blacks who fought for the US in that war? Looks like there were a lot of them, and they even fought against those that fought for the Brits.

Black Soldier and Sailors in the War | War of 1812 | PBS

 

[hoosierdoc]

Saying you "hope" is being intellectually honest. No one knows what they'd do 170 years ago. To claim they do is absurd.

perhaps the NAACP should dump the democrat party if they want to advance their race. I see black immigrants coming to our country and doing well. They haven't been taught to hate the system or that they are victims. Victims don't succeed.

and I know it's not PC to say, but many people of color today are much better off because their ancestors were brought here as slaves. The abuses of their ancestors have benefited them by moving their family to the US and eventually gaining freedom.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

And when people get challenged based on bad logic, they throw out the "well, you think I'm a racist," victim card, to shut down the conversation. If you are ,own it, if you aren't create better arguments so you don't have backtrack and try to explain yourself. Because you DID call slaves that fought for their freedom "traitors." You DID say you "hope" you'd help slaves while having "no reservations" helping others fight for freedom. I guess I'm wrong for calling you out on that, and provided you the chance to say "well, you think I'm a racist" excuse 'eh?

lol

 

[1DOWN4UP]

One time I told everyone I was getting a black truck.I then got a beige truck instead.It was not the color I was after,but it had cloth seats and the black truck had vinyl seats. Would that transaction have been considered a racist,or a prejudiced transaction.I do really hate black vinyl in the hot summer. The truck did have A/c.

 

[hoosierdoc]

No but pianos are racist. Only 70% as many black keys, and they are not whole notes

 

[jamil]

There are many significant issues that need to be openly and honestly discussed. When I first saw the NFL protests of the NA I was, as a veteran, appalled. Later, although still greatly offended, I hoped that if a national discussion were to take place many of these issues could be discussed. Sadly, that's not the direction we're heading in. Everyone seems to have picked a side, as usual, and the only thing people want to do is sling arrows at the other side. The actual topic the NFL players wanted to bring to the national conscience has been lost in the noise. Now it has become just another issue to divide us. As if there aren't already enough of those.

I hate the term, "national discussion". We're all individuals. We're not having just one conversation. We're having perhaps millions of individual conversations on the topic with family, friends, coworkers, social media, and they're not all having the same conversation.

But okay. So there's really many conversations, and in the millions of conversations people are having, if we're talking about how bad Kaepernick is as a player, that's not a useful conversation to solve the problems. That's not why Kaepernick isn't playing. If we're talking about how racist the NFL is because Kaepernick is not playing, that's not a useful conversation either. That's not why Kaepernick can't find a job. If we're talking about how racist America is and that it oppresses Black people and people of color, AS IF America were not comprised of individuals, only a relatively few of whom actually oppress people, that's not a useful conversation.

State the real problems accurately. Some people abuse their authority and oppress some black people and some people of color. How do we fix THAT. Some people have an irrational belief that every encounter that ever ends with a cop shooting a black person, it's always because the cop or entire police department is racist. How do we fix THAT? The media is not honest about these encounters, which help fuel the other two problems. So how do we fix THAT? If this "national conversation" millions of people are having isn't about those problems, then the real problems won't get solved.

Notice I didn't mention kneeling. That's a silly side affect of one guy selling his soul for *****.

 

[jamil]

Oh. And on topic. Changing the national anthem won't stop individuals who oppress black people and people of color.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Saying you "hope" is being intellectually honest. No one knows what they'd do 170 years ago. To claim they do is absurd.

perhaps the NAACP should dump the democrat party if they want to advance their race. I see black immigrants coming to our country and doing well. They haven't been taught to hate the system or that they are victims. Victims don't succeed.

and I know it's not PC to say, but many people of color today are much better off because their ancestors were brought here as slaves. The abuses of their ancestors have benefited them by moving their family to the US and eventually gaining freedom.

So you're saying that the forcible enslavement of millions of people and subsequent colonization had no effect on the way that part of the world developed?

 

[hoosierdoc]

Oh. And on topic. Changing the national anthem won't stop individuals who oppress black people and people of color.

Theybknow it won't, that's probably not their true intention anyway. Just the first step in a battle to prove the founding was bad and reparations are needed

 

[printcraft]

Oh. And on topic. Changing the national anthem won't stop individuals who oppress black people and people of color.

 

[hoosierdoc]

So you're saying that the forcible enslavement of millions of people and subsequent colonization had no effect on the way that part of the world developed?

uhm... I thought I was clear. People in this country who have descended from imported slaves are often better off because of the suffering their ancestors went through than if they still remained in Africa.

i don't think I could have been any more clear. If you would like to make a counter argument, please feel free. No need to make your point by attempting inferences on my statement

but look at Zimbabwe. Sooo much better now that colonialism ended, isn't it?

 

[printcraft]

Ethiopia was never colonized.......








Somebody call sally struthers and tell her to put down the fork.

 

[hoosierdoc]

It's western civilization that has advanced the worldwide standard of living. Sure there are downsides to the concepts, but as a whole, colonization and import of western civilization has progressed the standard of living in countries.

i suppose "better off" is up for debate though.