Are we Totalitarian yet?

[ancjr]

If the past 2 years haven't shown you the groundwork has been laid for Australian or Chinese style totalitarianism, even in this country, I honestly don't know what to say.

 

[tackdriver]

It's both sides that have the same issues (in my experience). For the last several years to many follow their emotions rather than apply logical thinking to reach a conclusion based on well researched information. Neither side has a monopoly on this issue. Conclusions may not be in agreement (based on beliefs, etc.) but in today's world respect and civil discussion between opposing sides no longer occurs (hence the "echo chamber" syndrome).
I find this very disheartening and discouraging.

True, but I would argue that this condition has always been. Logic and reasoning - Philosophy (the love of wisdom) - has never been widespread or well accepted. It's difficult at first, and requires time and practice always. I suggest that three basic changes have happened, that exacerbates the negative impact today:

1. We put up with stupid and lazy far too much. There is no pressure to improve ones thinking, because stupid and lazy is just fine.
2. Things change quicker, everywhere, and we are overloaded with far more "information" to process. If you don't have good skills to begin with, it's really hard to catch up. Back to number 1. above.
3. Those holding power, or seeking power (political, comercial, economic, academic, etc.) have learned that stupid and lazy has more appeal to the masses, therefore more influential. Entertaining beats wisdom almost every time. Everyone knows that politicians lie. Everyone knows that the news outlets lie. Everyone rushes to the news to find out what the politicians are saying.

The problem you raise so saturates our society, and I can't think of how to change it. It's like people in a burning building that just don't want to leave. You can suit up and try to save them, but they attack you instead. Even if you pull one out, they run right back into the fire.

I find this very disheartening and discouraging as well. Beyond teaching my children, I just don't know what to do.

 

[tackdriver]

Yup.
Face masks during a pandemic are 'Totaliaranism' to this bunch...

Or having to wait in traffic, or just not generally getting their way.

Yup back to ya. So...?

Being asked/required to take safety precautions that are proven to have significant impact for others and oneself isn't, alone, totalitarian. It's part of living in a society.

Being forced to do something I disagree with, that I believe is wrong, that doesn't withstand reason or scientific scrutiny, just so that politicians and Karen's can feel good... I think that's moving in that direction.

It's my opinion. If you don't think I'm entitled to it, or should be forced to change it, or punished for sharing it... I think you're moving in that direction.

If you want constructively change my opinion, I welcome the effort. You've got your work cut out for you. I doubt your willing/able to put in the legitimate effort.

BTW - I don't like traffic and not getting my way either, but don't see what either has to do with Totalitarianism. I'll go turn off some brain cells and think about this one some more.

 

[JeepHammer]

Yup back to ya. So...?

Being asked/required to take safety precautions that are proven to have significant impact for others and oneself isn't, alone, totalitarian. It's part of living in a society.

Being forced to do something I disagree with, that I believe is wrong, that doesn't withstand reason or scientific scrutiny, just so that politicians and Karen's can feel good... I think that's moving in that direction.

It's my opinion. If you don't think I'm entitled to it, or should be forced to change it, or punished for sharing it... I think you're moving in that direction.

If you want constructively change my opinion, I welcome the effort. You've got your work cut out for you. I doubt your willing/able to put in the legitimate effort.

BTW - I don't like traffic and not getting my way either, but don't see what either has to do with Totalitarianism. I'll go turn off some brain cells and think about this one some more.

If you want examples of totalitarianism, then look to Red China...

The point was, these guys screaming have no idea what totalitarianism is in practice.

Throwing a tantrum when you don't get served for not wearing a mask isn't totalitarianism no matter how much, or how loud they say it.

The same goes for having to wait in lines, wait in traffic etc and getting penalities for not following the basic socal, or traffic rules.

I noticed customers are SHOCKED to find out I can fire THEM.
Some people just aren't worth the effort...

 

[BugI02]

Yup.
Face masks during a pandemic are 'Totaliaranism' to this bunch...

Or having to wait in traffic, or just not generally getting their way.

I recognize that your purpose is trolling, not discussion - but 25 killed while bilions of dollars in damage is done during what the unholy alliance between a marxist government and a quisling fourth estate labels 'mostly peaceful protests', which are allowed to flaunt the WuVid narrative being pushed because they are 'necessary to public health', doesn't seem just a little bit like newspeak and Big Brother?

"It was with the last revolution and the coming of INGSOC (Inglish/English Socialism) that the latest High learnt how to keep their position permanently - by cultivating ignorance among the other classes and by constantly surveying them through the Thought Police. Part of this strategy included the maintenance of a state of continual warfare, which Goldstein discussed in the third chapter. The three major powers were not fighting this perpetual war for victory; they were fighting to keep a state of emergency always present as the surest guarantee of authoritarianism." - George Orwell

That could just as easily have been written any time in the last year

 

[BugI02]

If the past 2 years haven't shown you the groundwork has been laid for Australian or Chinese style totalitarianism, even in this country, I honestly don't know what to say.

Those who can't see it almost certainly just don't want to see it

Some can't unsee it

The Turn

When I saw the left give up everything I believe in, I changed politically. You can too.

www.tabletmag.com

You might be living through The Turn if you ever found yourself feeling like free speech should stay free even if it offended some group or individual but now can’t admit it at dinner with friends because you are afraid of being thought a bigot. You are living through The Turn if you have questions about public health policies—including the effects of lockdowns and school closures on the poor and most vulnerable in our society—but can’t ask them out loud because you know you’ll be labeled an anti-vaxxer. You are living through The Turn if you think that burning down towns and looting stores isn’t the best way to promote social justice, but feel you can’t say so because you know you’ll be called a white supremacist.

 

[ancjr]

 

[ancjr]

 

[jsharmon7]

Those who can't see it almost certainly just don't want to see it

Some can't unsee it

The Turn

When I saw the left give up everything I believe in, I changed politically. You can too.

www.tabletmag.com

It may be that we are working from different definitions of the term “totalitarianism.” My definition is the government controlling our lives. This sounds more like social pressure. So when we are discussing “totalitarianism,” are we saying that’s included?

 

[buckwacker]

It may be that we are working from different definitions of the term “totalitarianism.” My definition is the government controlling our lives. This sounds more like social pressure. So when we are discussing “totalitarianism,” are we saying that’s included?

Maybe a different context might help. Is slavery totalitarian, I mean for slaves? When slavery was legal in this country, the government allowed citizens, private businesses, to own other human beings and force them to work without compensation. The government did not own slaves or participate in the slave trade, so they were blameless? By the argument you've put forward, the government wasn't totalitarian with respect to those of african heritage because they didn't enslave anyone.

Now apply that same context to the ideas of modern day censorship in the media and tech. The government doesn't censor, or so they say, but they allow censorship to exist when it works the the advantage of those in power, which is really just tacit support. Does it really matter if it's private business doing the censoring rather than the government if a group of people are shut out of discourse because of what they say? This is just one example.

 

[1nderbeard]

I don't think you can say totalitarian until violence in mass is happening against opponents. We're not there yet.

But if it there were some way for the left media to spin it, we'd be there tomorrow.

 

[buckwacker]

I don't think you can say totalitarian until violence in mass is happening against opponents. We're not there yet.

But if it there were some way for the left media to spin it, we'd be there tomorrow.

I think the discussion has been more about trajectory than where we are on the spectrum. No we aren't rounding dissidents up into camps, yet, at least not in large numbers. But we are closer than we were.

 

[jsharmon7]

Maybe a different context might help. Is slavery totalitarian, I mean for slaves? When slavery was legal in this country, the government allowed citizens, private businesses, to own other human beings and force them to work without compensation. The government did not own slaves or participate in the slave trade, so they were blameless? By the argument you've put forward, the government wasn't totalitarian with respect to those of african heritage because they didn't enslave anyone.

Now apply that same context to the ideas of modern day censorship in the media and tech. The government doesn't censor, or so they say, but they allow censorship to exist when it works the the advantage of those in power, which is really just tacit support. Does it really matter if it's private business doing the censoring rather than the government if a group of people are shut out of discourse because of what they say? This is just one example.

So the solution to combating totalitarianism is MORE government involvement in our lives? Or just certain parts of it? I’m just trying to figure out what the definition is, and right now it just seems overly broad.

 

[buckwacker]

So the solution to combating totalitarianism is MORE government involvement in our lives? Or just certain parts of it? I’m just trying to figure out what the definition is, and right now it just seems overly broad.

Well that was actually the argument around slavery, that resulted in a civil war. The South said it was not the government's business to regulate owning other people, and it was definitely not the government's business to prevent states from leaving the union. Those wanting to outlaw slavery, wanted more government. Those wanting to prevent states leaving the union wanted more government. I think their desires were justified on the former, but not on the latter. So it depends.

Government intervention isn't always bad. If it's used to protect individual rights, it can be good.

 

[BugI02]

It may be that we are working from different definitions of the term “totalitarianism.” My definition is the government controlling our lives. This sounds more like social pressure. So when we are discussing “totalitarianism,” are we saying that’s included?

If the government leverages social media through pressure on your employer or OSHA to force you to be vaccinated to keep your job, is the government not controlling your life just as much

Did the Stasi not leverage ordinary people to keep an eye on their neighbors? Does it matter if the NKVD develop a case against you directly or based on information supplied by an informer? What about the same situation with the FBI?

I think what matters is the intent to rule, not the tools used. Was there a meaningful difference between Fascism and Stalinism

 

[BugI02]

So the solution to combating totalitarianism is MORE government involvement in our lives? Or just certain parts of it? I’m just trying to figure out what the definition is, and right now it just seems overly broad.

to·tal·i·tar·i·an·ism
noun
a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state

So, which part of it is it that doesn't seem to apply, again?

 

[jsharmon7]

So, which part of it is it that doesn't seem to apply, again?

The part where hesitance to appear anti-vaccine has nothing to do with government control. Nobody will lock you up, you’ll just feel embarrassed if people laugh at you.

EDIT: My question isn’t about any one’s opinion about where we are at. It’s how broadly “government” is being applied.

 

[ancjr]

Not long ago there were 2 weeks where you'd risk being arrested on sight for being seen outside of your house, and now someone isn't sure where the totalitarianism is? It's waiting around for the next excuse. Be ready.

 

[BugI02]

The part where hesitance to appear anti-vaccine has nothing to do with government control. Nobody will lock you up, you’ll just feel embarrassed if people laugh at you.

So 'lock you up' is the only form of punishment that questioning the official narrative might bring, the only way the government has to control you? Did you skip the vaccine mandates thread? Did you fail to understand the author's words about being deprived of your next job, or tenure, or admission to certain schools for you or a child, or whether a processor will allow your business to use banking services or crowdsource funds or advertise a business?

The death of a thousand cuts still results in death, you know

The title of the thread asks whether we are totalitarian yet. The discussion would seem like it should revolve around yes or no, not arguing the semantics of totalitarianism so as to be able to say 'it's not that bad (yet)'

 

[manifest destiny]

People actually stormed the hall of power on Jan 6 and are merely getting a slap on the wrist. How is that totalitarian?

Stormed. Hall of power. Slap on wrist. Really?

Sounds a lot like the ACA ("Romney Care/Obama Care").
Republicans voted for it, it passed,

You and I remember this differently. Very differently.

To the question from the OP, I say we are headed rapidly to tyrannical rule. The current rules enforced upon us are coming directly from one person. Executive Order. Masks, vax, type of engine in our car, the breath we exhale. One might argue that we're not yet totalitarian, but one cannot argue we're more free today than yesterday.