“No firearms” signs this weekend for NRA convention

[Denny347]

Believe the op is saying that moms who cant get any action are handing these signs out to local buisnesses to put in their establishments. Nothing about these at the convention center itself

Oh for crying out loud...

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Oh for crying out loud...

Wheres your pitchfork and torch?

 

[HoughMade]

I don't remember any of this nonsense going on 5 years ago. I roamed freely OCing and went into several places without issue. Have things changed THAT much downtown in 5 years? I guess we'll find out.

If you see any​ of these signs actually posted, I will be surprised.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I haven't heard him speak on this issue, but my guess is something got lost in translation. In Indiana, "NO GUNS" signs mean nothing until the business owner, or a designee, tells you to leave. At that point, if you leave you have not committed a crime. If you refuse, you can be arrested for trespass.

In fact, at least in Marion County, ignoring a sign that says "NO TRESPASSING" is not enough to make an arrest. The prosecutor's office has been very clear on it. The reason they give is the statute says "Knowingly and Intentionally". They say a person can just say they did not see the sign, can't read it, or don't even speak English. So, they say the person has to be told to leave by the owner or an agent of the business AND the person has to refuse to leave in order to make the arrest.

Other counties may take a different approach. These are those gray areas I often speak about when it comes to the law.

Um, it is not the Marion County Code, it is the Indiana Code. Criminal Trespass is the same throughout the state.

You are giving less than optimal legal advice.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It is worded as a condition of entry:

 

[cbhausen]

Quick, somebody make up some “no guns, no money” decals we can put up near those signs.

The last time somebody tried this crap with me it cost their business several thousand dollars in sales when our baby shower registry went elsewhere.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Um, it is not the Marion County Code, it is the Indiana Code. Criminal Trespass is the same throughout the state.

You are giving less than optimal legal advice.

When does he ever give more than less than optimal legal advice? It's par for the course.

 

[Indyal]

Is there an app that folks can share to say don’t patronize those places that choose to hang signs

 

[CPT Nervous]

It is worded as a condition of entry:

So, if I'm off duty, and see a man robbing the establishment at gun point, do I need to get specific authorization from the manager to enter? Or will they just explain to the gunman that he needs to take his gun outside?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Um, it is not the Marion County Code, it is the Indiana Code. Criminal Trespass is the same throughout the state.

You are giving less than optimal legal advice.

So should I not hold my phone up and educate the officer by making him read his post then?

Plan B I guess.

 

[Alamo]

So, if I'm off duty, and see a man robbing the establishment at gun point, do I need to get specific authorization from the manager to enter? Or will they just explain to the gunman that he needs to take his gun outside?

Just cite the robber for trespassing and go on about your business.

 

[AngryRooster]

Don't go in those places and give them any money...

Guess I need to pass some of these out:

In addition to these, make sure the business KNOWS they lost your dollars. Also, come back to INGO and share which businesses have these signs. Maybe snap a picture of the sign & business front.

Let the rest of us know who to avoid in the future.

 

[2A_Tom]

It looks as though you lawyers and IANAL butters ran him off.

 

[actaeon277]

Looks like I'll be putting a few more of those no guns no money cards in my wallet for my trip downtown. I'll be sure and stop and and drop one off with the manager should I be walking by and see one. And if I'm feeling extra AF, might even ask the hostess for a menu first and note what I would have spent had I not been deterred by the signage. More than just a vague note of non patronage.

Would be nice if thousands of people do that.

 

[actaeon277]

If you’re on Facebook, go to the post on Abdul-Hakim Shabazz’s page. Guy weighed in a couple times in the discussion. I’d post a screen shot for the group, but that’s a pain in the butt.

I’m extremely familiar with how things are actually filed and enforced in Marion County, but my humble opinion is simply to follow state law and not risk it. Whether the case is immediately dismissed or not will not be much comfort after wasting time at turn key. It’s close enough that I doubt you’d have much legal recourse if you got arrested and then kicked loose the next morning.

https://www.facebook.com/AttyAbdul?...sTR3HTHAEyal6zLaJoHpv35_8JN5y1iNMJ_ByrGypb2Ab

 

[actaeon277]

Guy A. Relford MDA has done its homework, for once. Under Indiana law, that sign has a different legal effect than a simple "no firearms allowed" sign. By including the language "we deny entry," this sign could subject a person to arrest and prosecution for criminal trespass for ignoring that sign and entering the premises with a firearm.

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  Michael Houze Yes it is their property and any sensible and common sense human will take their business elsewhere.
  
  Or change the sign to licensed concealed carry welcome in our store.
  
  
  
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  Michael Houze Guy A. Relford thank you for warning everyone.
  
  
  
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  Nick Rhoades Guy A. Relford is there a way this info can be shared on wibc and to NRA members? I always thought no firearm signs where not enforceable but they could ask you to leave and then you could only get in trouble if you refused. This is one I've never seen before and without seeing this would not have read. Thankyou for warning us. This should be spread to as many as possible.
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford Yes, I can help spread the word. The issue comes out of the wording of the Indiana statute that defines "criminal trespass." You are guilty of that crime IF you are : (b) A person who:
  
  (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowing…See More
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford A simple "no firearms" sign doesn't actually deny anyone entry - it just states the business' policy. That's why you typically have to refuse to leave before you can be arrested. This sign, by actually saying "we deny entry" implicates subparagraph (b)(1) - when it usually takes a violation of subparagraph (b)(2) to raise a problem.
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford Having said all that, I doubt most IMPD officers would actually take anyone to jail unless they refused to leave, but the wording of the sign creates more risk of arrest for gun owners than the usual "no firearms" sign.
  
  
  
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  James Howell Interesting....thought we were protected by law about this.
  
  * either way, I say if a business wants to take this stance...make them pay for it in loss revenue
  
  
  
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  Jake Fleury Can a sign be a "person's agent"?
  
  
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford Yes. Subsection (c): "(c) A person has been denied entry under subsection (b)(1) when the person has been denied entry by means of:
  
  (1) personal communication, oral or written;…See More
  
  
  
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  Dale Jones Guy A. Relford so out of curiosity if an individual carrying concealed enters the establishment, possibly without seeing the sign, and places and order for food and that order is taken. Does that constitute a contractual interest?
  If so, then if the e…See More
  
  
  
  
  
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  Jake Fleury So signs can enforce law if they're worded right... damn to bad they figured that out... someone needs to take one for the team then sue for discrimination.
  
  
  
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  Brian J. Borshoff Guy A. Relford wow! Thanks for the info.
  
  
  
  
  
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  Don Cottey Good information Guy A. Relford.
  
  
  
  
  
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  Rick Freed Guy A. Relford So, since the 2nd Amendment is a constitutional right, all we need to do is have the legislature classify legal gun owners as a protected class?
  
  IC 22-9-1-2 Public Policy, Construction of Chapter…See More
  
  
  
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  Bob Curtis When we have been told for years by experts, news articles, and so on regarding the gun laws in Indiana that "no guns" signs have no weight under the law - how could any reasonable person understand the legal difference here? In 20 years of legal carry, this is the first I've heard of this, from anyone on either side of the issue.
  
  
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford Bob - Only because you've never taken my Indiana Gun Law course. I've been talking about this for years.
  
  
  
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  Bob Curtis Guy A. Relford And many others have said just the opposite for decades. Not saying you're wrong, just that no reasonable normal everyday person could ever hope to understand the difference.
  
  
  
  
  
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  Guy A. Relford Apparently you haven't read my posts here. Pretty simple.
  
  
  
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  Walt Dougherty Thanks for the clarification of the wording, "deny entry" versus No guns. A sign like that in a merchant's window should be clear that they don't deserve my dollar.
  
  
  
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[ditcherman]

Just think if moms short of action can pull this off during a big pro gun convention, this might be a new permanent battle here in Indiana.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I don't remember any of this nonsense going on 5 years ago. I roamed freely OCing and went into several places without issue. Have things changed THAT much downtown in 5 years? I guess we'll find out.

If you see any​ of these signs actually posted, I will be surprised.

Just think if moms short of action can pull this off during a big pro gun convention, this might be a new permanent battle here in Indiana.

I doubt you will see these only on Mass Ave. Yeah, there may be one or two outside that liberal strip, but I doubt it.

 

[Selfpreservation]

Um, it is not the Marion County Code, it is the Indiana Code. Criminal Trespass is the same throughout the state.

You are giving less than optimal legal advice.

A prosecutor is God when it comes to what get's filed & what doesn't. It's why in one county the prosecutor enjoys his bourbon, so OWI's aren't prosecuted very heavily. But the next county over, the prosecutor had a family member killed by a drunk driver, so get what they prosecute heavily? There's statute, then there's what the prosecutor will file. Hell, they teach that in basic academy law. Surprised they didn't cover that when you went to law school.
Wait, did you go to law school?

I explained based on 15 yrs of police work in Marion County how the Marion county prosecutor's office handles trespasses. I also stated how it varies in other counties. Even mentioned the gray areas so common in law.
So, how exactly did I give "less than optimal legal advice"?

 

[lonehoosier]