1911 carry Cocked, and not locked?

[DadSmith]

I was wondering why the thumb safety needs to be on to carry a 1911?.

There is a grip safety that will not allow the hammer to fall while in the holster. So why carry it with the thumb safety on?

Most firearms have nothing but a trigger safety now days, and with proper finger placement drawning the 1911 and firing it should be no different.

So why use the thumb safety at all?

Now remember I'm a 1911 noob so educate me.

 

[binkerton]

Noob here, but to me theres just something about that unsprung hammer sitting there that would make me uneasy. Couple that with the typical 1911 trigger which seem to be very easy to pull and I dont know that I would carry one cocked and unlocked. Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[russc2542]

If you can, you should, otherwise why did you get one? Tradition? Why else would you even carry a 1911 vs one of those new fangled tupperware guns with a trigger dingus?

If you do carry it unlocked, make sure you still practice sweeping the safety off on the draw so you don't have an "oh crap" moment should it get activated accidentally. At that point you might as well carry locked since you're already practicing for it.

 

[ditcherman]

This will be interesting; I’m gonna throw out that the fact that the trigger on a 1911 is nicer, lighter, and crisper, that the safety is needed. The safety provides lockup of the slide, sear, and hammer.
Carrying with safety off would be the equivalent of carrying a g***k with a 3 lb trigger. Maybe it’d be even more appropriate to say it’d be the equivalent of carrying a Sig P320 (no trigger safety) with a 3 lb trigger.

 

[ditcherman]

Noob here, but to me theres just something about that unsprung hammer sitting there that would make me uneasy. Couple that with the typical 1911 trigger which seem to be very easy to pull and I dont know that I would carry one cocked and unlocked. Just my thoughts on the matter.

I think you’re on to something, IIRC the striker in a striker fired pistol isn’t sitting there ready to go forward, you finish pulling it back with the trigger pull.
It’s why a 1911 can have such a nice crisp trigger.
Will wait for the experts to see if I know what I’m talking about, not completely positive.

 

[BigRed]

I will trust and rely on John Moses Brown's genius when it comes to this.

When carrying, it is cocked AND locked.

 

[DadSmith]

John Moses Browning designed it without a thumb safety but it did have a grip safety. The Army wanted a thumb safety so that was added on to satisfy the army. If I got my history correct.

 

[Bennettjh]

I carry a 1911 locked. Just feels natural to have the safety on, and the triggers are usually so light.

 

[DadSmith]

Does the grip safety lock up the same parts as the thumb safety?

 

[ditcherman]

Does the grip safety lock up the same parts as the thumb safety?

No, absolutely not.
The slide and sear are locked with the thumb safety, not with grip safety. Grip safety uses dark magic to not allow the trigger to worky. Maybe someone else thinks they have a more technical explanation, but I’m pretty sure that’s right.

 

[JEBland]

I think you’re on to something, IIRC the striker in a striker fired pistol isn’t sitting there ready to go forward, you finish pulling it back with the trigger pull.
It’s why a 1911 can have such a nice crisp trigger.
Will wait for the experts to see if I know what I’m talking about, not completely positive.

It'd be interesting if anyone has collected data on trigger pulls on GI 1911s around say WWII. It's hard for me to imagine that the original triggers for GIs were anything resembling the competition style pistols people have now. That said, by having the hammer fully cocked and just waiting to drop is not inherently limited the way that pulling the hammer/striker back for double-action is.

I'm not expert, but some (many?) striker fired designs tout a "double action only striker fired" as a safety mechanism where the striker is cocked only 70% or the way instead of 90%, etc. (Percentages based on my memory of reading such a claim.) Can design essentially how much the striker should be cocked before pulling. For a weird hybrid design: apparently the Walther P99 allowed one to choose between a "single action" striker fired and decocking it for a "double action" striker fired option. Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Second_generation_variants A lot of aftermarket trigger options for striker guns seem to be about reducing the distances rather than reducing pull weight, but I don't have data to back that claim on hand. There's all sorts of statements about optimum pull or even that long pulls are ideal for self-defense (and/or that stacking & grittiness isn't an issue). I'll let other people discuss that.

Anyway. I think the main limitation of striker-fired guns is PR and actual/felt safety of operation. (Not that they can be as good as hammer, but that they are purposefully designed away from that end goal when stock).

Now back to your regularly scheduled 1911 discussion where I learn stuff.

 

[ditcherman]

Couple of opinions from another site…
John Browning did that in 1910.

The Army Ordnance Board sent it back with a request for a manual slide locking safety so that a mounted cavalryman who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse could quickly make the pistol safe and reholster it to free up both hands.

Even in those old dead days, they understood that a man under stress might neglect to get his finger off the trigger before he jammed the piece into his holster.

Not...as so many insist...because Browning designed it to be carried cocked and locked.

1910 Colt courtesy of Charles Clawson.


And number 2…
There's no need for all that. It can be carried cocked and unlocked.

The trigger still has to be pulled in order to fire the gun, and it has to be held in a firing grip in order to pull the trigger. In the holster, the grip safety blocks the trigger.

The thumb safety doesn't lock or block the hammer.

If the sear were to instantaneously turn to dust, the hammer would fall and it would wipe the safety off faster than you can with your thumb.

But if the sear crown cracked or the hammer hooks failed, the sear would still grab the half-cock notch and stop the hammer.

And the chances of any of that happening are about as good as winning the powerball twice in a row.

Once again, not mine.

 

[BigRed]

I'll stick with cocked AND locked.

Good history lessons though!

 

[ditcherman]

I'll stick with cocked AND locked.

Good history lessons though!

Yes, but will you let it slam shut, unloaded?

 

[DadSmith]

Couple of opinions from another site…
John Browning did that in 1910.

The Army Ordnance Board sent it back with a request for a manual slide locking safety so that a mounted cavalryman who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse could quickly make the pistol safe and reholster it to free up both hands.

Even in those old dead days, they understood that a man under stress might neglect to get his finger off the trigger before he jammed the piece into his holster.

Not...as so many insist...because Browning designed it to be carried cocked and locked.

1910 Colt courtesy of Charles Clawson.


And number 2…
There's no need for all that. It can be carried cocked and unlocked.

The trigger still has to be pulled in order to fire the gun, and it has to be held in a firing grip in order to pull the trigger. In the holster, the grip safety blocks the trigger.

The thumb safety doesn't lock or block the hammer.

If the sear were to instantaneously turn to dust, the hammer would fall and it would wipe the safety off faster than you can with your thumb.

But if the sear crown cracked or the hammer hooks failed, the sear would still grab the half-cock notch and stop the hammer.

And the chances of any of that happening are about as good as winning the powerball twice in a row.

Once again, not mine.

What I want to find out. Is it going to hurt anything mechanically to have it cocked and no thumb safety on? Is there a chance the hammer will drop on its own without the trigger being pulled? Etc....

I'm not worried about a light trigger pull. I worked my CZ P10F over its around 3-3.5lb no safety other than the trigger. I believe trigger discipline is the safest way to handle any firearm.

 

[ECS686]

What I want to find out. Is it going to hurt anything mechanically to have it cocked and no thumb safety on? Is there a chance the hammer will drop on its own without the trigger being pulled? Etc....

I'm not worried about a light trigger pull. I worked my CZ P10F over its around 3-3.5lb no safety other than the trigger. I believe trigger discipline is the safest way to handle any firearm.

I will ad this as someone that has seen a lot of training issues with agencies. Mechanically it shouldn't damage anything That said just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. You shouldn't run around without a 1911 thumb safety engaged. Even if you have one with a series 80 firing oin block

Yes some designs have a hammer with only a grip safetyy option (D&W M&P Shield EZ come to mind) they were designed for that and they have a hinged trigger.

So it really isn't a good idea. In a real defensive encounter the minuscule time youd safe isn't going to make or break you in a fight. Its not a speed draw like the movies.

At the end of the day one can do whatever they want just make sure your career and check book can handle.

Good luck

 

[DadSmith]

I've personally been training cocked and locked, and I've gotten use to getting the thumb safety off as I draw it up to shoot. Right now it's a mental step and not naturally done yet. I don't have that many reps to commit it to muscle memory yet.

I did also try it cocked and unlocked and it was much faster that's why I brought up this question. I definitely need more training with the safety on to get it to were it's not thought of but just part of the draw to take it off.

 

[churchmouse]

I will trust and rely on John Moses Brown's genius when it comes to this.

When carrying, it is cocked AND locked.

^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^
Period.
that safety is no hindrance if you cycle the gun enough to make using it 2nd nature muscle memory

 

[Dean C.]

I would like to add that I would NEVER rely on just the grip safety , if properly fit almost any weight put on it will deactivate it. Plus when reholstering you will be deactivating your only safety and that trigger is not very forgiving before it goes bang just saying.

There is a reason you see some carry the other way around with the grip safety deactivated and the thumb safety still in use.

 

[churchmouse]

I've personally been training cocked and locked, and I've gotten use to getting the thumb safety off as I draw it up to shoot. Right now it's a mental step and not naturally done yet. I don't have that many reps to commit it to muscle memory yet.

I did also try it cocked and unlocked and it was much faster that's why I brought up this question. I definitely need more training with the safety on to get it to were it's not thought of but just part of the draw to take it off.

I seriously doubt that if properly used there is any differing draw to fire time.
“Propely” used.
again, make it a part of your SD draw. It will become muscle memory and require no thoughts to do it.

edit… mental note, read/comprehend the entire post in future.