.22 For a Carry?

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  • Slawburger

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    Mar 26, 2012
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    These discussions often involve people oversimplifying to just one variable. The reality is that there are multiple variables and even when you consider all of them there is no 100% solution. You just try to improve your probability of success to an acceptable level.

    1) Shot placement matters but the acceptable variation in shot placement varies depending on other factors. The acceptable margin of error is different with a .22 short and a .44 magnum.

    2) Caliber matters but larger calibers introduces variables of recoil, cost, concealability, carry weight, etc.

    3) Bullet type matters but no single projectile design is optimal for all targets. Some designs do more damage but only if they reach the target (not the surface of the target). Is the target covered by 6" of organic matter or 6" of organic matter + a winter coat + ...

    4) Velocity matters but sometimes less is more and sometimes less is, well less.

    5) Bullet mass matters but it can change velocity.

    Think through what combination of variables (there are more than I mentioned) apply to situations in which you are most likely to need a firearm.

    Generally speaking, a .22 is better than nothing but is seldom the optimal solution. When asked, I usually recommend 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp, 38 special, .357 magnum. Those are all common calibers, available in a concealable size, capable in a variety of circumstances, with manageable recoil to enable accurate follow-up shots. Selecting between those depends on the individual person, their skill level, platform preferences, carry method, recoil tolerance, etc.

    YMMV
     

    2A_Tom

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    I just thought of a .22LR that might be okay for personal defense (assuming it were reliable): American-180

    At PB the other day with a new shooter CCI HV had Failuur to fire in both auto rifle and revolver. It does not matter how reliable the firearm is.

    Well maybe a trident firing pin.
     

    HoughMade

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    Oct 24, 2012
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    People have gotten up after being blasted by .45. anecdotes don't mean anything. .380 is fine.

    Sure its an anecdote...firsthand to me from a person actually involved in a defensive shooting. Anecdotes don't prove anything with certainty except it happened at least once.

    ...kinda like anecdotes about people getting up after being "blasted" by a .45.

    What is not really debatable (oh wait, I forgot the INGO factor) is that a round like the 9mm moves heavier bullets than the .380 faster and that if you can fire a .380 effectively, you can learn to fire a 9mm effectively. I keep using the 9mm comparison, not because its "better" than .40, .45 or .357 (Mag or Sig), but because I see no reason to choose .380 over 9mm unless you really, really HAVE GOT TO HAVE a tiny frame, and even then, there's not much difference.
     
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    PistolPastor

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    Sure its an anecdote...firsthand to me from a person actually involved in a defensive shooting. Anecdotes don't prove anything with certainty except it happened at least once.

    ...kinda like anecdotes about people getting up after being "blasted" by a .45.

    What is not really debatable (oh wait, I forgot the INGO factor) is that a round like the 9mm moves heavier bullets than the .380 faster and that if you can fire a .380 effectively, you can learn to fire a 9mm effectively. I keep using the 9mm comparison, not because its "better" than .45, .45 or .357 (Mag or Sig), but because I see no reason to choose .380 over 9mm unless you really, really HAVE GOT TO HAVE a tiny frame, and even then, there' snot much difference.

    My problem with .380s is that I hate every one I've shot. And I mean HATE. I'd never practice with the thing.
     

    VERT

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    Only .380 I have shot that I can recommend is the Glock 42. It is a surprisingly behaved little shooter, even with the 99 grain HSTs. I recently put a nice set of Ameriglo sights and a Ghost connector in my wife’s G42. I have not had a chance to try it out yet. I am sure better sights and the smoother trigger will help.

    If Walther fixes their dumb stupid idiotic poorly designed safety on the PK380 that one might also make my list.

    Just say NO to pocket .380s.
     

    Cameramonkey

    www.thechosen.tv
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    Only .380 I have shot that I can recommend is the Glock 42. It is a surprisingly behaved little shooter, even with the 99 grain HSTs. I recently put a nice set of Ameriglo sights and a Ghost connector in my wife’s G42. I have not had a chance to try it out yet. I am sure better sights and the smoother trigger will help.

    If Walther fixes their dumb stupid idiotic poorly designed safety on the PK380 that one might also make my list.

    Just say NO to pocket .380s.

    x2.

    I like my G42. Not as much as my G19, but I dont regret the 42.

    My wife likes her LCP, but admittedly it is difficult to shoot and not very accurate. Pocket pistols suck.
     
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    Aug 23, 2009
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    I just thought of a .22LR that might be okay for personal defense (assuming it were reliable): American-180

    Some years ago when I was VP of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America I was a banquet speaker at the Soldier of Fortune Convention. It always includes the Three Gun Match and machine gun shoot at a range out in the desert.

    There was a rep from American 180 there demonstrating their guns. He said he was going to show us how their guns could be useful as an entry weapon for SWAT teams.

    A mock wall had been built out of concrete blocks. The rep cut loose and emptied a magazine at it (177 rounds if memory serves). A big cloud of dust rose, and when the breeze blew it down range it revealed a pile of gravel where the wall had been.

    It was way cool. Evidently they never caught on.

     

    HoughMade

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    Oct 24, 2012
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    I remember seeing the American 180 on "That's Incredible" with a laser sight...they were mostly focusing on laser. This was when i was 9, 10 or 11 years old. Cool stuff.
     

    VERT

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    Jan 4, 2009
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    x2.

    I like my G42. Not as much as my G19, but I dont regret the 42.

    My wife likes her LCP, but admittedly it is difficult to shoot and not very accurate. Pocket pistols suck.

    I picked up a like new LCP for cheap as a demo gun. Something to show what a typical pocket gun looks like. My wife immediately said she likes it because it was small and light. She is experienced enough to know little guns kick but she wanted to at least try it. So I put a Crimson Trace on the gun so it would have some sights and a Hogue rubber grip and a little pinky extension then zeroed the gun. She fired 5 rounds and said “nope”. So I cleaned it and put it in my support side pocket. Since that day I have only fired the gun with my left hand and that is it’s sole purpose. I will admit that it fits into a pocket and the laser is good for a right handed, right eyes dominant shooter.
     

    Trebor657

    Sharpshooter
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    Jun 1, 2017
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    Fort wayne
    I know this has been beat to death so I'll be brief...I often times carry a NAA .22 with a folding pocket clip grip as a backup, never primary weapon...I figure its a decent belly gun and better than nothing...may not put someone down but sure will make 'em think twice...
     

    rhino

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    Some years ago when I was VP of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America I was a banquet speaker at the Soldier of Fortune Convention. It always includes the Three Gun Match and machine gun shoot at a range out in the desert.

    There was a rep from American 180 there demonstrating their guns. He said he was going to show us how their guns could be useful as an entry weapon for SWAT teams.

    A mock wall had been built out of concrete blocks. The rep cut loose and emptied a magazine at it (177 rounds if memory serves). A big cloud of dust rose, and when the breeze blew it down range it revealed a pile of gravel where the wall had been.

    It was way cool. Evidently they never caught on.


    There is a video from one of the SOF conventions showing a guy pulverizing a cinder block with an American-180. It's cool seeing it!

    It's the equivalent of a bunch of guys with Bobcats moving a big pile of earth that a huge bulldozer or loader-crawler could move with one or two passes. The dirt still gets moved even if it take a little longer.
     

    WanderingSol07

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    Aug 7, 2017
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    I started shooting last May with a target .22lr. I purchased my first gun in October, a Browning 1911-380 with 4.25" barrel. I picked this gun because it fits my hand quite well out of dozens of guns I've held. I enjoy shooting it. Right now I can put 50% of my shots into a 2" bulls-eye at 7 yards. I plan to carry it concealed in the future. Those that already do tell me it should be easy to do because of its narrow width.

    Last fall I got some time on the county sheriff's Milo system. Wow! I did 2 scenarios, 1 in a retail business where I was near the back of the store when 2 armed robbers came in. I was able to put shots on target without innocents in the background. The second was an active shooter in a school. Was stressful to me 'walking' the halls looking for the bad guy. Found him, he put down his rifle, but then drew a pistol, I shot 8 times before he got me. My closest shot to him was about 5 feet away. I was shooting a blue plastic laser pistol about the size of a Glock 17. No recoil. They asked my how many times I shot, I said 3, it was actually 8.

    I learned this, being a civilian it would be best to avoid these situations, or get out of them as quickly as possible. I would hope any defensive training talks about this too, not just gun handling. I suppose you can train for dealing with this stress while shooting, but I would expect it to be a lot of training and continuing to train to make shooting well a muscle memory. If you ever have access to a Milo (or something like it) system, give it a try.

    I am now more aware of my surroundings and who is doing what. I lock my car when sitting in it. When waiting for my wife shopping, I now park in the middle of an empty section so I can see people coming from a distance. I don't get gas at night, don't shop at all at night.

    I think I will carry at some point, but I need a lot more training and experience first. First to have it ingrained to always be aware and checking out the area and people in it. Know the exits from your current location, walking, running, driving, etc. Knowing when to shoot (backstop, what is the threat), knowing how to shoot. First aid skills.

    I think caliber has very little to do with this, all the Youtube videos, TV reports, talking to police that have been involved in shootings lead me to believe the vast majority of people will run away from gunfire, especially if they are hit.

    Do your own research, talk to people who have the experience of being involved in shootings.
     

    Captaincrunk

    Plinker
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    Dec 11, 2017
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    .380 is the smallest cartridge I've seen consistently break bone, so it's where I'd put the floor for a carry pistol. That said, while people do walk around after being shot with a .45 and with a .380, not in the same numbers. The main issue with .380 is finding a cartridge that will both expand and penetrate sufficiently, every offering I've seen so far does one or the other. In the common duty calibers, you can get both along with being barrier blind.
    Yeah you just have to do your research. Also, most people aren't LEOs or shooting through barriers.

    This guy tested a ton of .380 out of short barrels in gel (and through 4 layers of denim before gel) and helps you make an informed decision on what ammo might be worth carrying. He has a video on each of those ammos in .380. Also has 9mm videos which I liked. He actually shows you what each cartridge did, and 5 shots each not just one. Here he tests the .380 Hornady Custom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbT7OJlRbkM

    Here was his final wrap up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&feature=youtu.be&t=42
     

    Paul30

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    If you must, do so in a revolver. Rimfire rounds are the most prone to not firing, and not extracting if it doesn't fire. Something to do with the priming powder in the rim getting bounced around and the priming compound possibly being displaced. I have had .22 not fire, and also not extract and have to remove it with a tool. I know, fix the gun. Just saying a self defense situation is not the time I want to have these issues to work out. A revolver at least rotates a fresh round in front of the hammer and goes boom. I consider a .380 my minimum, and prefer a 9 as my light carry gun simply due to price of practice ammo, number of rounds in magazine. Also carry the most reliable round instead of a 500 round bulk box round in it. Stingers come to mind. If I knew I was going to have to use it that day, the 10 mm or better. Mine is a compromise of what I am willing to carry around every day that will still get the job done.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    Yeah you just have to do your research. Also, most people aren't LEOs or shooting through barriers.

    This guy tested a ton of .380 out of short barrels in gel (and through 4 layers of denim before gel) and helps you make an informed decision on what ammo might be worth carrying. He has a video on each of those ammos in .380. Also has 9mm videos which I liked. He actually shows you what each cartridge did, and 5 shots each not just one. Here he tests the .380 Hornady Custom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbT7OJlRbkM

    Here was his final wrap up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&feature=youtu.be&t=42

    Barriers aren't just doors and windshields. For non-LEO, the most common is probably a forearm. Bad guy has a gun extended, good guy is focused on the gun, and his rounds strike the bad guy's arm before his torso, sometimes the gun itself is hit. I've seen at least two magazine floor plates shot off...

    That said, windshield testing is also a very good way to predict how a bullet reacts to bone and for that reason I value the full FBI protocol even if shooting into/out of cars isn't likely.
     

    Uncle Lee

    Marksman
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    Jul 20, 2011
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    I carry a pair of North American Arms Black Widows in 22 magnum and I feel safe.
    I have good shot placement out to 15 feet. That is with one hand (either hand). I feel this is a good defensive distance.
     

    Andy Wayne

    Plinker
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    Jun 25, 2009
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    My problem with .380s is that I hate every one I've shot. And I mean HATE. I'd never practice with the thing.

    I love my Colt Mustang Pocketlite. It's very accurate. I got it just before I turned 21, (I'm 37 now) and have carried it daily since. (For the past 5+ years, I also carry a Glock 36)

    Here's a pic of it with my EDC from 2007:
    06-29-07 - 18 by Andrew Naylor, on Flickr

    I've since replaced the grips with ivory.

    If you'd like to see more pics of it, see here: https://www.flickr.com/search/?user...=date-taken-desc&text=colt mustang&view_all=1
     
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