350 JR = A "little different" Indiana Wildcat for Whitetail

[Hookeye]

FWIW Big Green did a limited run of the 7600 synth carbines in .35 Rem for a PA Distributor I think back in 2005.

Cool rig but folks want stupid money for them now

 

[SKRSR]

More shooting.

Loaded some 220 grain Speer for my buddy today. Kicked back the powder a bit with the IMR8208XBR (his wishes) and that gave him 2500 fps, give or take 9 fps (SD). Pretty much what he wanted.

While curious of where the round CAN go, as mentioned, neither of us old farts feel maxed out loads are anywhere close to mandatory for our whitetail hunts. Time being short, just decent shooting relatively quick loads with whichever bullet of choice is our goal and we've not had a single load "shoot badly" yet, not even the fire forming (barely needed) loads.

He shot some fire of these lighter loads yesterday with the 180 grain Speer at 2400 fps (light) and they shot under 1 1/2 inches for him like they did in my own. Might have to do a little serious load testing with that bullet for chits and giggles. lol

Picked up some 200 grain Hornady and hoping to meet to swap for the H335 here locally tomorrow. I still want to try some Benchmark or H322 (faster but approx same density) but the H335 nealy matches H4895 and IMR 8208 in burn speed (or rated as such anyway) but is VERY dense. VMD calculations show I COULD load up to as much as 3.5-4 more grains compared to the IMR 8208 but BETTING pressure max will be reached before that. While not impervious to temps like some of my first choices, the density makes it a curious contender for both my first choice of the 225 grain bullets and the 200 grainers.

I simply want to reach CLOSE to max pressures with both faster burning powders and med burners simply to compare both velocity and groupings.

Min group loads will come in time. Serious group testing mandates a higher power scope with Moi shooting (Donations of such graciously accepted!! )

All in all...this is gonna take awhile so dont fall asleep (or just go ahead and ignore me, lol).

God Bless
Steve

 

[rjhans53]

just so you know, the 35 whelen would of worked fine. I've done a # of rifles for the family that is a 358 win with the shoulders pushed back and trimmed to length. Basically a standard 358 reamer and a set of dies trimmed down. I get a good solid 2350 with a 200 gr bullet and 2450 with 180's. Now until they increased the length from 1.625 to the 1.8 I had a lot of bullet sticking out of the case but with the 1.8 length they even look right. OH to who ever said no one hunts with anything over a 30 cal sorry to disagree but I like my 338 feds and my 358 winchesters, they thump deer HARD.

 

[Broom_jm]

just so you know, the 35 whelen would of worked fine. I've done a # of rifles for the family that is a 358 win with the shoulders pushed back and trimmed to length. Basically a standard 358 reamer and a set of dies trimmed down. I get a good solid 2350 with a 200 gr bullet and 2450 with 180's. Now until they increased the length from 1.625 to the 1.8 I had a lot of bullet sticking out of the case but with the 1.8 length they even look right. OH to who ever said no one hunts with anything over a 30 cal sorry to disagree but I like my 338 feds and my 358 winchesters, they thump deer HARD.

Yes, you can start with just about any case that has a .473" head size and massage it to Indiana-legal dimensions. Why someone would start with 35 Whelen brass is beyond me...just more brass to trim off. Are you saying you could start with a 35 Whelen BARREL and set that back? That makes good sense, if you want a 358 Hoosier type of chamber.

This thread is about the 350 Rem Mag, a belted cartridge...totally different deal. I guess you could start with a really long 35 caliber belted mag, like a 358 STA, and set it WAY back? I don't imagine many guys will go that route.

For the record: I didn't say "no one" hunts deer outside of Indiana with anything over 30 caliber. What I said is that relatively few folks opt to "go big" when they have perfectly adequate choices from smaller cartridges that deliver a whole lot less recoil. Even the guys putting together 35 caliber wildcats for Indiana are reaching a point of diminishing returns, where they don't really want "more", if it means dealing with the kind of recoil they were hoping to leave behind when they switched from their slug guns.

 

[Hookeye]

Bud had a 700 Classic in .35 Whelen. Fun gun. Big shove, .338 winmag V with 250's. Not fierce, and his had a stock that had the grain and weight of balsa.

Thinking of getting a 7600 carbine (buy or make) for that round.

Sis lives in elk land, might have to visit

 

[rjhans53]

ok yes I'm saying that you could redo the chamber on a 35 whelen by cutting the chamber down and rethreading, not the brass, that would be a pain. The idea of this belted mag I think is a good one and I messed with grinding down a set of dies, redoing the belted area of the dies and putting together a few rounds just to see. The big deal to me was getting a reamer made when I wasn't sure how the thing would work. One of the reasons I went the way I did was if it didn't work, I could away ream it on out to a 358 win. Yes I also have a 358 bfg (wssm) and necking it up from a 25 to a 35 is a pain also, but I don't shoot it much so it's not a big deal.

 

[SKRSR]

H335, dense, fine.....fun, slower results.

Swapped for some H335 (Mag primers used again) just for the trial mentioned.

Denser by a considerable margin than IMR8208 but loads to just a slightly noticably stffl bolt lift showed 2525 fps with the 225 grain bullets. Usable but, nothing better than what the IMR8208 is WITHOUT the bolt lift pressure sign.

Still thinking that Benchmark and H322 will be the best test down the road and definately usable for the lighter bullets, if nothing else.

For fun we loaded the max load for the 225 grain bullets and stuck in a lighter bullet. Slow of course but the big orange ball of flame out the end of the barrel caused a giggle or two.

Miraculously, I am beginning to think that perphaps I dumbed into pretty much near top choice in powders in IMR8208 from the start.

Nothing to complain about in performance however, IMO.

God Bless
Steve

 

[1$Chuck]

ok yes I'm saying that you could redo the chamber on a 35 whelen by cutting the chamber down and rethreading, not the brass, that would be a pain. The idea of this belted mag I think is a good one and I messed with grinding down a set of dies, redoing the belted area of the dies and putting together a few rounds just to see. The big deal to me was getting a reamer made when I wasn't sure how the thing would work. One of the reasons I went the way I did was if it didn't work, I could away ream it on out to a 358 win. Yes I also have a 358 bfg (wssm) and necking it up from a 25 to a 35 is a pain also, but I don't shoot it much so it's not a big deal.

Wouldn't a 35 Whelen be a long action gun? I suppose you could use a long action to make a short Indiana Deer rifle, but it would certainly be less than ideal.

 

[rjhans53]

Yes a long action probably isn't the best choice, I just said it could be done. A short action that started out as a 358 win would be a better choice. I do have a 338 fed that is on a long action savage, feeds very well, but feeding these really short rounds is sometimes a challenge, but hey you only need one shot anyway. 1 of the guns I built was on a m48 mauser action (almost a long action and was really gun #1 built for testing), 2 on savages that started life as 243's (with 35 whelen barrels that were cut down and rethreaed), mine is on a howa (custom er shaw barrel) and I just reamed out my 75 sako to a 358 win. I did build one on a 77 ruger action that I sent the barrel off and had it cut down and rethreaded, I think that one is the smoothest feeding one of the bunch. They all feed once you know the combination, the mauser for instance 3 in the mag. 1 and 2 feed smooth as silk, the last on is going to hang a bit, but a finger helping steer and it slides in also. The savages 2 in the mag feed well but don't put 3 in. The howa stack em and it will cycle 4 of the 5. The lastest experiment I did was cutting down 358 win brass to 1.8", EXTREEMLY short neck but the rounds hold even while firing and the groups open up about from 3/4 to 1 1/4 @ 100.

 

[downzero]

My biggest gripe about the Indiana regs is that they force us to use a caliber that is entirely too large for what you really "need" to kill a li'l ol' deer. Go to any state where normal rifles are allowed and there are very few guys shooting deer with a caliber larger than 30...there's just no cause for it. Anything from 24 to 30 is plenty of bullet for deer, especially if the correct bullet is chosen.

Yep, but short and heavy drops faster, and I'm pretty sure that's why they made the rules that way.

Now that you guys are getting almost .308 performance out of cartridges like this, though, perhaps it was a mistake.

 

[Broom_jm]

Yep, but short and heavy drops faster, and I'm pretty sure that's why they made the rules that way.

Now that you guys are getting almost .308 performance out of cartridges like this, though, perhaps it was a mistake.

Whether or not the DNR made a mistake, now or in the past, with their cartridge regulations, is a thought for another thread. THIS thread is about a very cool wildcat cartridge that is perfectly legal and a lot more effective than your basic 44 and 357 lever-guns. At the same time, it is not a lot more effective than a full-length rifle barrel, chambered in 460S&W, which is THE ROUND the DNR intended to include with the recent changes. So...

For those who would like to discuss the reasoning behind what rifle cartridges we can use in Indiana, along with the history and possible future regulations, please check out the thread I created in the General discussion forum.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...tory_of_deer_hunting_firearms_in_indiana.html

Jason

 

[SKRSR]

Whether or not the DNR made a mistake, now or in the past, with their cartridge regulations, is a thought for another thread. THIS thread is about a very cool wildcat cartridge that is perfectly legal and a lot more effective than your basic 44 and 357 lever-guns. At the same time, it is not a lot more effective than a full-length rifle barrel, chambered in 460S&W, which is THE ROUND the DNR intended to include with the recent changes. So...

Jason

Thank you, Jason but I DONT mind the slightly OT discussion on "my" thread. It's all concerning the options us Hoosiers have and options on builds. I always learn on such additions myself and one cannot have too much info!!

Jason makes an EXCELLENT comparison and one that should have oozed out of my remaining 3 functioning brain cells since the 460 S&W was GOING TO BE the round I was going to try to pick up for 2012 and further on.

For a straight walled, fat bullet round......the 460 S&W is a FLAT shooting choice.

Below will show a side by side comparison to the 460 in an estimated 3000 fps with the Hornady 200 grain FTX (some say they get, No inside info here personally) to my current Wild-type-cat of this thread with a 225 grain bullet in current velocities. Both are set with a 150 yard zero and with a 10mph cross wind.

I have to admit I DID NOT imagine that the difference between the two in WIND DRIFT would be this large at longer ranges! (and yes, I double and triple checked the info input...in disbelief!!) ARGHHHH

Yard for yard, there isnt more than a pinch of difference out to 250 yards in trajectory. The 460 even has more energy at the muzzle but, of course, drops back faster due to the .151 BC of that bullet.

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 460 S&W :: 460 S&W 200 gr FTX® LEVERevolution®

It also still retains the suggested (by whom I've no idea) minimum energy for deer beyond most hunter's capabilities.

Had I the option to borrow one, I'd still take it out and whack a few just 'cause!

IF there is any kind of "downside" to the 460 smith for MY use (in no way putting down this awesome round!) it would be the low sectional density of pistol bullets if meant for what I consider long range. This may be due more to my ignorance than anything else or perhaps I've read too many threads on ballistics?

The link above shows the SD of this bullet to be .140 and a 225 grain in I'm using in the 350JR ( this is NOT really an "apples to apples" comparison with the difference in weight) the SD is .251. It takes 300 grains and up to get .210 or more in the .452 bullets.

Sierra GameKing Bullets 35 Cal (358 Diameter) 225 Grain Spitzer Boat

But, none-the-less that single factor (and also the cost of a Ruger No. 1 that would have been rifle of my choice!) had me hesitating. I'm sure there are bullets available that would improve on this??? but wanting to visit my sister in MT for some "bigger deer" (aka ELK) before I leave this rock I did some checking online and the 460 smith is mentioned with HEAVY bullets and CLOSE range for elk or not mentioned at all. I believe that the believed lessened penetration of low SD bullets would be the reason.

That said, the Barnes 275 grain XPB might be a LITTLE less than "suggested" in SD but I'd not be able to own a 460 and not give them a shot!

All in all, the 460 S&W is a whack em and stack em round for whitetail and a great choice IMO in a factory round for those not inclined to go the wildcat route and as Jason pointed out is one of the rounds targeted for legal deer hunting here in Indiana out of a rifle.

With the trajectory comparison in these two rounds being practically a wash?......... INDEED! (Concerning the "safety" of wildcat ranges)

Here is some info on sectional density for those interested.

Sectional Density

God Bless
Steve

 

[Broom_jm]

I think you would find the 24" Katahdin Encore barrel pushes factory Hornady FTX loads to about 2,700fps, with the little 200gr gummy-tip bullet. Still, that makes the trajectory of these loads, out past 200 yards, close enough to the same that it's splitting hairs to claim one is "better" than the other.

A buddy of mine has a Ruger #1 in 460S&W. It is a BEAUTIFUL rifle. I was lucky enough to shoot it last summer at a measured 287 yards. With judicious handloads and sighted in 3" high at 100 yards, it takes very little hold-over to place bullets where they need to be at that distance. Heaven knows they'll still have plenty of energy!

So, Indiana has made 300 yard deer hunting rifles legal. Agreed? Tell me again why we can't shoot full-length 30/30, 35 Remington, 45/70 and 250 Savage rounds?

 

[amafrank]

Another one that beats this is the 358 WSM-IN which is based on the WSM case shortened to 1.790" and fired from Remington 700's with barrel lengths of 18"-26". They have been shooting 150gr bullets at over 3200fps and 180's at over 3000. I know they've tried the 225's but most guys don't want to deal with the recoil. They have been shooting the 225's at 2700-2850fps. Accuracy has been outstanding on all the rifles that S&S machine built. He bought the reamer from Mansons and Hornady is making the dies. He built a pretty good number of the WSSM's in the last few years but with the longer case length limits the WSM is now the one. Always good to see some new ones out there though. It gives everyone more choices. Some like the belted cases and some don't and finding brass for any of them isn't always easy.

Frank

 

[SKRSR]

Another one that beats this is the 358 WSM-IN which is based on the WSM case shortened to 1.790" and fired from Remington 700's with barrel lengths of 18"-26". They have been shooting 150gr bullets at over 3200fps and 180's at over 3000. I know they've tried the 225's but most guys don't want to deal with the recoil. They have been shooting the 225's at 2700-2850fps. Accuracy has been outstanding on all the rifles that S&S machine built. He bought the reamer from Mansons and Hornady is making the dies. He built a pretty good number of the WSSM's in the last few years but with the longer case length limits the WSM is now the one. Always good to see some new ones out there though. It gives everyone more choices. Some like the belted cases and some don't and finding brass for any of them isn't always easy.

Frank

Seriously? Belted mag brass is hardly hard to come by and any belted mag brass works if one has a turning tool. It has multiple options in brass to use, part of the whole point of the round. It is NOT dependant on one specific round to use for forming and MUCH easier to get brass for.

I bought 300 belted mag brass, half new, half 1x fired for 75 dollars.....shipped.

The entire point of the 350JR is easy and certainly more than adequate with equal or more energy than some rounds used for elk, bear and moose......and inexpensive.

Without pushing or switching powders 2800 fps with the 180s and 2900 with the 150 Rem is no biggie. Note my velocities is with a 20.5 inch barrel. A 26 inch with some powder tests would increase that if one felt the need for some reason. Ive ran ballistics on 35 bullets and 100 fps dont do much for trajectory, especially in sensible IN hunting ranges.

As for "another one that beats this one"......The mentioned round is the ONLY round Ive found "faster" than the 350JR. I believe Ive mentioned it, under another name maybe? but for MY use the extra velocity wasnt enough to merit the extra cost.

While we discussed the 460, and agree its a great one. It does not overpower the 350JR in any sense nor shoot flatter if one wishes to push the envelope and go MAX.....that Ive never reached yet.

As said, the "fastest" was never, ever the goal. Sensible cost and sensible round was.

Its not for everyone and never intended it to be.

GodBless

 

[SKRSR]

And it works......as expected.

All the 35 bore wildcats are adequate and more for what a friend on another site called "scrawny whitetails", he being an elk hunter using rounds of similar ballistics but as expected it didnt let us down opening day.

Jim and I are old farts that just like to hunt deer, often not "fitting in" with the horn porn crowd. Big bucks are of course, appreciated and loved but heck, it's a lot of work for us old guys just to HUNT.

Glass half full, we are tickled with hunts that come together as planned.......or not.

The 350JR is "four for four" for Indiana's 2012 opening morning.

I took this 3x4 at 830 while he was nosing 3 does around.

Jim shot a twin sized 8 and two does from his "birdsnest" 25 feet up.

Close to head on, mine was "shoot now or pass" as he was heading towards a road where the does had gone leaving "no shot" safety wise.

As he popped over the fence I hit him through the right shoulder's front edge and the 180 grain Speer (took your advice JB) I decided on for closer range stands, ended up a dimple on his azz just under the skin.

Not close to max loaded, I still cant say there was anything lacking there in performance, expansion nor penetration wise. A pic of the bullet for those perhaps interested in such. For the price, the Speer do it in spades.
Jim was using the 220 grain version for his three.

Back out after the does!!!

GodBless
Steve

 

[Skip]

Very good and congrats!

358WSSM here. Going to stay with this round for lots of stuff, maybe even cast bullets and fast pistol powders for squirrels and such!

 

[amafrank]

Seriously? Belted mag brass is hardly hard to come by and any belted mag brass works if one has a turning tool. It has multiple options in brass to use, part of the whole point of the round. It is NOT dependant on one specific round to use for forming and MUCH easier to get brass for.

I bought 300 belted mag brass, half new, half 1x fired for 75 dollars.....shipped.

The entire point of the 350JR is easy and certainly more than adequate with equal or more energy than some rounds used for elk, bear and moose......and inexpensive.

Without pushing or switching powders 2800 fps with the 180s and 2900 with the 150 Rem is no biggie. Note my velocities is with a 20.5 inch barrel. A 26 inch with some powder tests would increase that if one felt the need for some reason. Ive ran ballistics on 35 bullets and 100 fps dont do much for trajectory, especially in sensible IN hunting ranges.

As for "another one that beats this one"......The mentioned round is the ONLY round Ive found "faster" than the 350JR. I believe Ive mentioned it, under another name maybe? but for MY use the extra velocity wasnt enough to merit the extra cost.

While we discussed the 460, and agree its a great one. It does not overpower the 350JR in any sense nor shoot flatter if one wishes to push the envelope and go MAX.....that Ive never reached yet.

As said, the "fastest" was never, ever the goal. Sensible cost and sensible round was.

Its not for everyone and never intended it to be.

GodBless

I didn't mean to say that the belted brass is unusable or that its a bad cartridge. I simply stated that the WSM-IN is hotter. The problem with belted brass isn't that its unusable as obviously it works well. The problems with belted brass are with the headspace and case cracking issues that are well known and documented since the dark ages of reloading. It normally doesn't last as long and is the primary reason that winchester and remington went to the wider based non belted mags. Accuracy is normally better with non belted brass cartridges as well. As for the average hunter it probably makes no difference either way and your cartridge is as good as any other for deer here in indiana. Since they have hunted deer with everything from .22's on up it is a huge improvement on most.

Frank

 

[Broom_jm]

I didn't mean to say that the belted brass is unusable or that its a bad cartridge. I simply stated that the WSM-IN is hotter. The problem with belted brass isn't that its unusable as obviously it works well. The problems with belted brass are with the headspace and case cracking issues that are well known and documented since the dark ages of reloading. It normally doesn't last as long and is the primary reason that winchester and remington went to the wider based non belted mags. Accuracy is normally better with non belted brass cartridges as well. As for the average hunter it probably makes no difference either way and your cartridge is as good as any other for deer here in indiana. Since they have hunted deer with everything from .22's on up it is a huge improvement on most.

Frank

With all due respect, Frank, you're making a lot of assumptions, based on facts not in evidence. That's legal jargon for "not so fast"!

There is no problem with belted cases not lasting as long or having headspace issues, so long as they are headspaced on the shoulder, where they should be. Any experienced reloader knows this and does NOT push the shoulder back far enough that the case would headspace on the belt, after the initial firing.

Likewise, the advent of short-fat magnums, such as those based on the rimless 404 Jeffery case, did not come about because of any problems, real or perceived, with belted magnums. They used a fatter-bodied case to get more powder in a shorter cartridge. If you want to "blame" that on anything, look up the PPC line of cartridges, which popularized the notion of shorter, fatter powder columns creating better accuracy. Whether true or not, it is that geometry you would point to as the progenitor of the WSSM, WSM and SAUM cartridge families.

Belted magnum rounds are still wildly successful and every bit as useful as they ever were, particularly to reloaders who know how to work with them.

I'm happy to see shortened 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, 460S&W, 35WSSM, 35WSM and the 350 J.R. making humane shots on Indiana deer, all at reasonable ranges and with no one harmed by these "powerful" rifles.

I took my Michigan buck on Friday with a 270 Winchester. God willing and the powers that be come to their senses, such will be possible in Indiana, some day!

 

[SKRSR]

FWIW ive got brass up to 7 loadings. They need annealed again. They have been shot 6 times since annealed. I kept a box separate for just this reason, to test brass life and to keep records of the best methods to gain what there is to gain concerning such.

ONLY brass Ive lost was out of a set of very old "new old stock" brass I first used that I formed and shot twice without annealing and I lost about 7 cases with splitting NECKS, not anything else. Working the brass that much pretty much makes annealing mandatory, regardless of the hunter's choice in wildcat.

As mentioned, headspacing off the shoulder and totally ignoring the belt is the way to go IMHO.

What slight "issue" I had with the above statement was not concerning belted mag brass usability but about them being "hard to come by". The total opposite is actually the situation. They are everywhere with 1x fired brass being especially inexpensive.

Not sure how many times OTHERS plan on shooting a deer rifle here in IN but even if 7-9 loadings "is all I can get"....that computes to 7-900 shots out of a box of 100 brass.

For those possibly going to a 358 wildcat I encourage you to do a little test that I found enlightening if DISTANCE and TRAJECTORY are your main concern.

Pick your.358 bullet of choice and find the BC. Enter the weight, BC and whatever velocity you feel the round gets. Something close will work. I use JBM trajectory.

Set your zero at whatever you feel is your usable one (I use 150 yards) and run the program. Save the results ( I use the "snipping tool) on Microsoft Windows seven) and just minimize it to compare later.

THEN..........keep running the velocity up and up and up by going back and rerunning each velocity imput UNTILLl you get to a 2 inch INCREASE in trajectory at 300 yards. It's a LOT velocity wise.

Two inches. Not a lot of difference for our ranges and few, if any, could really tell at 300 yards since 2 inches is less than MOA for that distance.

Should you find the velocity that increases the normal trajectory of these rounds to get a 2 inch improvement at 300 yards......I THEN ask you to look at what you will need to get that and the cost OF getting it.....it it exists at all.

My point, FWIW and only IMHO is that for what I feel is a very small gain in trajectory, youre looking at a LOT of recoil with a very specifically built, LARGE wildcat in a very long barrel.

My feelings on this is well explained in the "WHY" I made the 350JR.

In a 20.5 inch easily carried and hunted with repeater rifle, the Rem 700, the round shoots every bit as flat as I can use and has the energy to take ELK at 300 yards with the 225 grain bullets.

As is, Im not even loading up to max for any single bullet used. With my LONG ranges being 200 yards, mid range loads give me a "center the crosshairs and shoot" trajectory to that range and could easily be set for further if one was happy with a higher than 1 or 1.5 inches at 100 yards. I am not, for my uses with 90 percent being under 100 yards I set the scope for such but know that at 200 yards the drop is small enough that a center of the chest hold will work.

That said, should a hunter really feel the added trajectory of a bigger round, longer barrel, more money (and MORE RECOIL) that is needed to get those 2 inches flatter trajectory..I will stand behind your decision 100 percent. It is, of course, your money.

As far as ACCURACY is concerned on belted brass? This i shot yesterday testing a NEW load with 200 grain Hornadys......with an 80 dollar Tasco scope.

Yes......you can do better, Im sure. I have no further need for "more". Not benchrest quality, nor a benchrest type rest either. This was shot with a wadded up bunch of towels on my charcoal grill for a rest. Cant complain. The red dot is an inch accross.

God Bless
Steve