.50-90 Sharps

[Slow Hand]

It’s hard To see all of the stamps on your barrels, but it looks like the eagle is an initial proof stamp. I know that British barrels used to be and maybe still are, proofed just as barrels. Then they are re-proofed once they are a firearm. The crown over U is a second proof mark, probably done as a complete rifle. The crown over G shows it’s a rifle.
im curious on the 42’s on each barrel. On most all of the European shotguns I’ve had, that signifies chamber length. 42mm is roughly 1.65”. My starline .50/70 brass measures 44.4mm. My Bertram is roughly 45mm (it’s all loaded ammo). I guess what I’m saying is, you might want to get some Cerrosafe and cast your chamber and get some good measurements before investing too much in ammo.

 

[Thor]

Good question, the chambers measure 2.5" deep. Often the date of manufacture was used but none of this makes much sense as the .50-90 sharps was not released until 1872. I was using a list from the NRA museum for the markings but the dates don't make any sense for this rifle.

 

[Thor]

Ive got bullets, and can cast more any day!

Next up brass and powder!

 

[JohnKDM]

Looks like rebounding locks? If not, be careful to bring them to half cock before opening the action or you risk shearing off the firing pin tips. Based on the pics, that is an 1880s rifle with later modifications. I question the cartridge designation; much more likely to be a 500 Black Powder Express (500BPE). Even though the most common version used a 3" case, they were made with many different case lengths ranging from 1.5" to 3.25". It would be easy to confuse the 500BPE 2&5/8" with our 50-90 and its 2.5" case. There was also a 450BPE, among others. These BPE cartridges lived into the nitro era and when loaded to their full potential with smokeless, were renamed Nitro Expresses, ie, 450NE, 500NE.

Also, that 'express' nomenclature - these were named 'express' cartridges, associating them with the fast express trains of the Victorian era - so they were the high velocity, flat shooting rifles of their day. To accomplish this, they used large charges of BP (usually Curtis & Harvey #6) under relatively light bullets. My 500BPE uses a 2&7/8" case and regulates with a 340gr bullet at 1925fps using 148grs of Swiss 2fg. Even with the light bullet, recoil is stout in an 8lb rifle. Another item; you can tell what level of power these guns were built for by their weight. Across the Atlantic, they were cognizant of recoil, so you will find these BP express rifles weighing about 8lbs and their later smokeless NE rifles running about 11-12lbs.

A chamber cast would help. Rim thickness, which controls headspace, varied also. Since it has later modifications, it is entirely possible someone ran a modern 50-90 reamer into both chambers, but the odds of it being built as such are low.

Regulation - getting both barrels shooting to point of aim - is key. You might be able to find a smokeless load using those heavy bullets, but I would bet it will be at a much lower velocity than the original load, which was likely built around a 270-340gr bullet.

You have a peach of a rifle, with tons of history behind it. It can be frustrating to find a BP load, but after you sort it out it will put a grin on your face when you use it in the field!

Pics of my 500BPE: Henry rifling, chamber end; Target, 340gr @ 1925fps; 340gr Cast PP bullet next to an original tubed bullet; 9pt taken last year

 

[nipprdog]

Looks like rebounding locks? If not, be careful to bring them to half cock before opening the action or you risk shearing off the firing pin tips. Based on the pics, that is an 1880s rifle with later modifications. I question the cartridge designation; much more likely to be a 500 Black Powder Express (500BPE). Even though the most common version used a 3" case, they were made with many different case lengths ranging from 1.5" to 3.25". It would be easy to confuse the 500BPE 2&5/8" with our 50-90 and its 2.5" case. There was also a 450BPE, among others. These BPE cartridges lived into the nitro era and when loaded to their full potential with smokeless, were renamed Nitro Expresses, ie, 450NE, 500NE.

Also, that 'express' nomenclature - these were named 'express' cartridges, associating them with the fast express trains of the Victorian era - so they were the high velocity, flat shooting rifles of their day. To accomplish this, they used large charges of BP (usually Curtis & Harvey #6) under relatively light bullets. My 500BPE uses a 2&7/8" case and regulates with a 340gr bullet at 1925fps using 148grs of Swiss 2fg. Even with the light bullet, recoil is stout in an 8lb rifle. Another item; you can tell what level of power these guns were built for by their weight. Across the Atlantic, they were cognizant of recoil, so you will find these BP express rifles weighing about 8lbs and their later smokeless NE rifles running about 11-12lbs.

A chamber cast would help. Rim thickness, which controls headspace, varied also. Since it has later modifications, it is entirely possible someone ran a modern 50-90 reamer into both chambers, but the odds of it being built as such are low.

Regulation - getting both barrels shooting to point of aim - is key. You might be able to find a smokeless load using those heavy bullets, but I would bet it will be at a much lower velocity than the original load, which was likely built around a 270-340gr bullet.

You have a peach of a rifle, with tons of history behind it. It can be frustrating to find a BP load, but after you sort it out it will put a grin on your face when you use it in the field!

Pics of my 500BPE: Henry rifling, chamber end; Target, 340gr @ 1925fps; 340gr Cast PP bullet next to an original tubed bullet; 9pt taken last year

Best second post in the history of INGO!

 

[Michigan Slim]

Best second post in the history of INGO!

Agreed! Most awesomest.

 

[STFU]

Looks like rebounding locks? If not, be careful to bring them to half cock before opening the action or you risk shearing off the firing pin tips. Based on the pics, that is an 1880s rifle with later modifications. I question the cartridge designation; much more likely to be a 500 Black Powder Express (500BPE). Even though the most common version used a 3" case, they were made with many different case lengths ranging from 1.5" to 3.25". It would be easy to confuse the 500BPE 2&5/8" with our 50-90 and its 2.5" case. There was also a 450BPE, among others. These BPE cartridges lived into the nitro era and when loaded to their full potential with smokeless, were renamed Nitro Expresses, ie, 450NE, 500NE.

Also, that 'express' nomenclature - these were named 'express' cartridges, associating them with the fast express trains of the Victorian era - so they were the high velocity, flat shooting rifles of their day. To accomplish this, they used large charges of BP (usually Curtis & Harvey #6) under relatively light bullets. My 500BPE uses a 2&7/8" case and regulates with a 340gr bullet at 1925fps using 148grs of Swiss 2fg. Even with the light bullet, recoil is stout in an 8lb rifle. Another item; you can tell what level of power these guns were built for by their weight. Across the Atlantic, they were cognizant of recoil, so you will find these BP express rifles weighing about 8lbs and their later smokeless NE rifles running about 11-12lbs.

A chamber cast would help. Rim thickness, which controls headspace, varied also. Since it has later modifications, it is entirely possible someone ran a modern 50-90 reamer into both chambers, but the odds of it being built as such are low.

Regulation - getting both barrels shooting to point of aim - is key. You might be able to find a smokeless load using those heavy bullets, but I would bet it will be at a much lower velocity than the original load, which was likely built around a 270-340gr bullet.

You have a peach of a rifle, with tons of history behind it. It can be frustrating to find a BP load, but after you sort it out it will put a grin on your face when you use it in the field!

Pics of my 500BPE: Henry rifling, chamber end; Target, 340gr @ 1925fps; 340gr Cast PP bullet next to an original tubed bullet; 9pt taken last year

Concur with the comments above.
Great second post. You will do well here!

 

[Slow Hand]

You all will do well to listen to John!

He’s a wealth of knowledge and experience, as he has already exhibited!

 

[JohnKDM]

You all will do well to listen to John!

He’s a wealth of knowledge and experience, as he has already exhibited!

Thanks, my friend! Have certainly discovered a lot of things that do not work, so there's that.

 

[JohnKDM]

Unsure if I am doing this correctly - posting a link to my Youtube video showing water jug testing of the aforementioned 500BPE paper patched 340gr cast bullet.

500BPE bullet testing

 

[Thor]

Thanks for all the great comments . Looks like I'll be trying a chamber casting to confirm what I've got.

 

[Thor]

BTW they are rebounding locks, there is no halfback (FYSA I did try to type half cock...thanks auto incorrect) position...so at least I won't be going off that way literally. :-)

 

[JohnKDM]

BTW they are rebounding locks, there is no halfback position...so at least I won't be going off that way literally. :-)

I thought they were from the pics. That's a good thing.

Look for the October 2002 (#219) issue of Handloader. In it, Ross Seyfried wrote THE article on loading the 500 BPE. He covers both black powder and smokeless Nitro-For-Black (NFB) loads. Interestingly, since the barrels of a double rifle lie on either side of the axis of the rifle, the gun recoils off-axis left and right as well as up and this explains why everything is important to get both barrels printing to the sights. The original nitro loads used cordite and they had to increase the bullet weight to achieve regulation as the weight of the smokeless powder was much less than the heavy BP charge, which factored into the recoil equation. Since it is all about barrel time/weight of ejecta/bullet weight, you may have luck finding a regulation point with smokeless and those heavier bullets at a reduced velocity.

 

[Thor]

Just FYSA the weight is 5lbs...a light weight for heavy weight bullets.

 

[JohnKDM]

Just FYSA the weight is 5lbs...a light weight for heavy weight bullets.

That is very light for a 50cal double rifle shooting heavy bullets... even the black powder express cartridge rifles, using 3+" cases to hold 140grs of black and shooting light-for-caliber bullets at 1900fps were 8-9lbs. Recoil with black powder was about 60ftlbs. The smokeless nitros shooting heavy bullets at 2000fps weighed 11-12lbs.

It will be interesting to see what loads will regulate in yours.

 

[Creedmoor]

That is very light for a 50cal double rifle shooting heavy bullets... even the black powder express cartridge rifles, using 3+" cases to hold 140grs of black and shooting light-for-caliber bullets at 1900fps were 8-9lbs. Recoil with black powder was about 60ftlbs. The smokeless nitros shooting heavy bullets at 2000fps weighed 11-12lbs.

It will be interesting to see what loads will regulate in yours.

I gotta ask, what mix are those cast bullets in you picture please?

 

[JohnKDM]

I gotta ask, what mix are those cast bullets in you picture please?

My profile picture? Those are about 20:1 lead/tin - I say 'about' because they aren't virgin alloy + tin, just 'soft' lead obtained from old roof flashing, lead pipes, etc., melted, cleaned and poured into ingots. They measure 9bhn on my LBT hardness tester and since virgin 20:1 should be 10bhn, the two are close. These 550gr bullets are cast from a Buffalo Arms Creedmoor mould and are used in a Shiloh Sharps 45-110, driven to about 1450fps.

The bullets used in the 500bpe video above are harder; they were made from air dropped WW + 2% tin. They run 13bhn on the tester. From the double rifle, they clock 1900fps and expand well. Produced from a custom Accurate Arms mould. This mould is a single cavity nose pour mould that will accept different length base plugs, which allows me to adjust the bullet weight by shortening the cylindrical portion; very good thing to have when developing loads that will regulate in a double rifle.

 

[Creedmoor]

My profile picture? Those are about 20:1 lead/tin - I say 'about' because they aren't virgin alloy + tin, just 'soft' lead obtained from old roof flashing, lead pipes, etc., melted, cleaned and poured into ingots. They measure 9bhn on my LBT hardness tester and since virgin 20:1 should be 10bhn, the two are close. These 550gr bullets are cast from a Buffalo Arms Creedmoor mould and are used in a Shiloh Sharps 45-110, driven to about 1450fps.

The bullets used in the 500bpe video above are harder; they were made from air dropped WW + 2% tin. They run 13bhn on the tester. From the double rifle, they clock 1900fps and expand well. Produced from a custom Accurate Arms mould. This mould is a single cavity nose pour mould that will accept different length base plugs, which allows me to adjust the bullet weight by shortening the cylindrical portion; very good thing to have when developing loads that will regulate in a double rifle.

Thank you, man they just look "hard" to me, like wheelweights or babbitt metal.
I can get just about 525 out of one of my Steve Brooks Postell molds like you with 20-1 other old Lymans I have for a highwall 40-65 likes 30-1.
Fun stuff.
Leadeye is another member here that casts for the oldies.

 

[JohnKDM]

Thank you, man they just look "hard" to me, like wheelweights or babbitt metal.
I can get just about 525 out of one of my Steve Brooks Postell molds like you with 20-1 other old Lymans I have for a highwall 40-65 likes 30-1.
Fun stuff.
Leadeye is another member here that casts for the oldies.

Also, those bullets are as-cast, not sized. Usually the shiny bits represent a sizing die polish, but this mould has a great internal band finish.

Glad to hear there are other like-minded folks here that like to shoot the oldies. From target shooting at long range to hunting deer on foot, I enjoy the challenge of 100+ year old rifles.

Have you guys made or used paper patched bullets?

 

[Creedmoor]

Also, those bullets are as-cast, not sized. Usually the shiny bits represent a sizing die polish, but this mould has a great internal band finish.

Glad to hear there are other like-minded folks here that like to shoot the oldies. From target shooting at long range to hunting deer on foot, I enjoy the challenge of 100+ year old rifles.

Have you guys made or used paper patched bullets?

I rolled a few with my 45-90, seemed more trouble that it was worth it for my rifles.
In BPCR I have the three Browning rifles.
40-65 45-70 and 45-90 Creedmoor, I swapped out the factory sights for LR MVA Buffalo's.
Fun fun stuff to shoot.
If I had a vintage Sharps or a Rolling Block I definitely would spend time with paper patching.