50 yard CCW shooting.

[Trapper Jim]

Not really an answer. Who is using the "industry spec" of 4" at 7y?

That’s just it... I doubt today that you can get that info as it is not required as a spec. However, over the years, more than I care to admit, I have had my share of guns from many makes and models that wouldn’t group better than that. Manufacturer claimed they were within factory specs. Whatever that means. You can probably find some in the classifieds or GB under slightly used.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have had my share of guns from many makes and models that wouldn’t group better than that. Manufacturer claimed they were within factory specs.

Still not an answer. Which specific makes and models couldn't shoot better than 4" at 7y? Which specific manufacture said that's within spec, or did it somehow shoot better at the repair shop?

 

[chezuki]

I have had my share of guns from many makes and models that wouldn’t group better than that.

Maybe it wasn’t the guns...

 

[Vigilant]

Not really an answer. Who is using the "industry spec" of 4" at 7y?

Everything not An old revolver or 1911. My Glocks certainly cannot be accurate enough for long shots!

 

[churchmouse]

Everything not An old revolver or 1911. My Glocks certainly cannot be accurate enough for long shots!

I watched bwframe and another Ingo guy beat steel over 100 yards with G****s.
Not every round as some fell short but yes I saw this.
I still do not like G****s but pick your poison. Practice with it. Become proficient with it. Stay on top of it.

 

[natdscott]

Maybe it wasn’t the guns...

I lol'ed.

Rep +1, even if it won't let me.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Still not an answer. Which specific makes and models couldn't shoot better than 4" at 7y? Which specific manufacture said that's within spec, or did it somehow shoot better at the repair shop?

I have had many makes and models over the years and even more in handling students that come to the table with all kinds of guns. Some good, some not so good. I will not name brands as it may offend some gun owners and also I am not an industry expert on manufacturing and marketing. However, I know my own experiences and stand by them. Also with so many thru my hands it is hard to remember each example.

Not naming names but there are gun companies who will provide a test target with the piece. Again, it is up to the consumer to question his manufacturer as to what their standards are. I donÂ’t believe you will see them published anywhere as the manufacturer has the fact that accuracy is dependent on the shooter. I know my ability and I know what I expect out of a piece.




it is of little importance to me at this stage as I donÂ’t buy guns that donÂ’t meet my standards. Perhaps you could ask a gun writer to do a report on industry accuracy standards in manufacturing today?

just sayin?

 

[Tanfodude]

That's true at 1,000 yards same as it is a 7 feet, and is true with a 40x scope, same as it is using your CCW pistol's slide as the sight.

At least, it is for me.

[video=youtube_share;li0rGtXh23I]https://youtu.be/li0rGtXh23I[/video]

 

[churchmouse]

I lol'ed.

Rep +1, even if it won't let me.

Got him for you.

 

[Vigilant]

I watched bwframe and another Ingo guy beat steel over 100 yards with G****s.
Not every round as some fell short but yes I saw this.
I still do not like G****s but pick your poison. Practice with it. Become proficient with it. Stay on top of it.

I was being facetious, due to the ridiculous notion of factory spec’d group size with nothing to back it. I’ve rang steel at 100 numerous times with G’s even the 26 and 43, I can’t do 5/5 or 8/10 but I can do it 6-7/10 with what seems regularity after establishing a hold over.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

I have had many makes and models over the years and even more in handling students that come to the table with all kinds of guns. Some good, some not so good. I will not name brands as it may offend some gun owners and also I am not an industry expert on manufacturing and marketing. However, I know my own experiences and stand by them. Also with so many thru my hands it is hard to remember each example.

Not naming names but there are gun companies who will provide a test target with the piece. Again, it is up to the consumer to question his manufacturer as to what their standards are. I donÂ’t believe you will see them published anywhere as the manufacturer has the fact that accuracy is dependent on the shooter. I know my ability and I know what I expect out of a piece.




it is of little importance to me at this stage as I donÂ’t buy guns that donÂ’t meet my standards. Perhaps you could ask a gun writer to do a report on industry accuracy standards in manufacturing today?

just sayin?

Name them. Who cares if anyone is offended? Back up your statement by naming the manufacturers and models. AFAIKthis is a forum for firearm owners, not a forum for owners of one particular make or model to fan over.

You made a statement that would raise an individual's attention to question a specific manufacturer or model. Like you said, it us up to to the individual. So maybe help out those individuals by naming the pieces you had problems with?

The last part is also really confusing. Ask a gun writer? How about asking you, the person that made the statement in question?

 

[bwframe]

Glad to see folks practicing for the long shot.

Regardless of whether you are in the circumstances to use your long shot ability, it pays to know you can or cannot put effective rounds on at distance.

Icing on the cake is that working on your long shot marksmanship can do nothing but improve your marksmanship at closer distances.

You could ultimately decide that a 50 yard shot is not a reliable shot that you can trust yourself to make. At the same time deciding that you now know a 25-35 yard shot is 90%, a risk that in some circumstances is worth taking.

 

[churchmouse]

I was being facetious, due to the ridiculous notion of factory spec’d group size with nothing to back it. I’ve rang steel at 100 numerous times with G’s even the 26 and 43, I can’t do 5/5 or 8/10 but I can do it 6-7/10 with what seems regularity after establishing a hold over.

Just clarifying that the offerings from Austria are OK accurate.
That did hurt to say but yes it is true.

 

[Trapper Jim]

You made a statement that would raise an individual's attention to question a specific manufacturer or model. Like you said, it us up to to the individual.


Mission accomplished. Have you questioned your gunmaker? If we the consumer start expecting better product we will get it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How about asking you, the person that made the statement in question?

Apparently too much to ask.

The good news is that for many brands there is institutional testing. Particularly the folks going for .gov contracts, as those contracts specify a certain accuracy standard. There are some trash guns out there, although I'm unaware of any that are as bad as Trapper Jim is claiming to know of. The S&W M&P 9mm 1st gens were often trash, 8" guns at 25y with the factory barrel. Oddly, the other calibers didn't suffer the same issue.

While I've probably not shot as wide a variety as Trapper Jim and his students, I've yet to find a gun that grouped that badly and was considered "in spec". I thought maybe some of the new budget offerings were that terrible, but since there's no actual information in TJ's posts I guess I'll remain in the dark. The budget guns Bersa and Hi-point certainly shot better than that. I've shot a few handguns that didn't care for particular ammunition, though usually not so dramatically. The absolute worst was Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +P in Sig P-series .45s. In a P245, it would meet TJ's claim, although with other ammunition it would clover leaf at 10y. It also sucked in a P220, which was easily capable of putting a full magazine in a 1" square at 10y with other ammo.


I'd still like an answer as to what manufacturers told TJ that 4" at 7y was within their specs.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Apparently too much to ask.

The good news is that for many brands there is institutional testing. Particularly the folks going for .gov contracts, as those contracts specify a certain accuracy standard. There are some trash guns out there, although I'm unaware of any that are as bad as Trapper Jim is claiming to know of. The S&W M&P 9mm 1st gens were often trash, 8" guns at 25y with the factory barrel. Oddly, the other calibers didn't suffer the same issue.

While I've probably not shot as wide a variety as Trapper Jim and his students, I've yet to find a gun that grouped that badly and was considered "in spec". I thought maybe some of the new budget offerings were that terrible, but since there's no actual information in TJ's posts I guess I'll remain in the dark. The budget guns Bersa and Hi-point certainly shot better than that. I've shot a few handguns that didn't care for particular ammunition, though usually not so dramatically. The absolute worst was Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +P in Sig P-series .45s. In a P245, it would meet TJ's claim, although with other ammunition it would clover leaf at 10y. It also sucked in a P220, which was easily capable of putting a full magazine in a 1" square at 10y with other ammo.


I'd still like an answer as to what manufacturers told TJ that 4" at 7y was within their specs.

The extreme poor customer service came from Sundance Industries if I remember correctly. Also extreme poor accuracy from an Interarms Virginian Dragoon In 44. While it is possible to get bad samples from any mass produced item, there are some that have a higher percentage of things going right. I tend to stay away from any handgun that will not fit my standards of reliability and accuracy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The extreme poor customer service came from Sundance Industries if I remember correctly. Also extreme poor accuracy from an Interarms Virginian Dragoon In 44. While it is possible to get bad samples from any mass produced item, there are some that have a higher percentage of things going right. I tend to stay away from any handgun that will not fit my standards of reliability and accuracy.

Ha, I'm not sure I'd consider the Interarms a "CCW" type weapon. Of course, I have an IWB holster for a 6" N-frame because why not. I've never even heard of Sundance. Sounds like probably not the sort of guns I'd consider for serious carry.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Ha, I'm not sure I'd consider the Interarms a "CCW" type weapon. Of course, I have an IWB holster for a 6" N-frame because why not. I've never even heard of Sundance. Sounds like probably not the sort of guns I'd consider for serious carry.

there was a time I played with the Ravens (Sundance was last owner I think) other guns on my off list has been an AMT Longslide Hardballer, Kahr, Taurus, Daewoo, Star, And there are more but it covers just too many years.

 

[Coach]

I disagree.

Either one has an equal ability to produce uncentered hits.

Trigger control is typically considered a lifelong pursuit, I grant you that, but I've missed due to sights before too, and I don't have a lot of trigger control issues. Some, sure. It can never be good enough.

That's true at 1,000 yards same as it is a 7 feet, and is true with a 40x scope, same as it is using your CCW pistol's slide as the sight.

At least, it is for me.

Lack of trigger control creates more missing that sight alignment. I am talking pistols. I am also talking using the sights not some alternative sight picture on the pistol.

Disagreement if fine.

I was also not talking about just my shooting. I am making my observation based upon watching thousands of shooters for the past fifteen years.

If mights are perfect and trigger press is suboptimal. Misses are likely. Good trigger press and poor sight alignment a hit is still very possible. The shorter the distance the more this is true.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Lack of trigger control creates more missing that sight alignment. I am talking pistols. I am also talking using the sights not some alternative sight picture on the pistol.

Disagreement if fine.

I was also not talking about just my shooting. I am making my observation based upon watching thousands of shooters for the past fifteen years.

If mights are perfect and trigger press is suboptimal. Misses are likely. Good trigger press and poor sight alignment a hit is still very possible. The shorter the distance the more this is true.

One of the reasons this is correct applies to the individual shooter ability to see clearly in the first place. That can be chance, Moving the muzzle off of target with a jerk is physics.