$500 vs $2500 AR-15

[jagee]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/do-you-truly-want-a-good-ar-15-or-do-you-want-crap.432518/

 

[Expat]

Not just ARs, I learned on the INGO that the cheapest 1911 is just
as good if not better than the high dollar ones and red dot optics, the cheap ones are way better.

 

[bgarman47]

Just for a different view into this whole situation... I have worked for firearms manufacturing companies for the last decade or so. I think I can shed some light on the price disparity.

Your average sub-$1000 AR is 70-80% OEM'd by companies other than the one who is putting their logo on the lower receiver. In my experience parts are ordered from a myriad of different vendors and are rarely, if ever, consistent for very long. The BCG in the rifle you bought may be a different vendor, finish, or even material than a rifle 500 serial numbers later.

The parts ordered are off-the-shelf unmodified OEM parts. These manufacturers do not independently QC parts as they come in from vendors. For the most part, they don't have prints or specs for the parts they are ordering to even check against. The vendors themselves may or may not do any in-house QC before shipping parts. Widespread issues with tolerance stacking are common. As a rule, gas ports are generally oversized 30-50% to make up for the lack of proper tolerance at the gas block, gas tube, gas key, and even bolt carrier surfaces. Most order parts that are slip fit versus interference fit so they can build more rifles per shift. Assembly staff is likely undertrained and has little or no understanding of how the rifle operates. Proper tools and fixtures are unlikely.

Will these rifles go 1000 rounds without issues? Maybe. Will they be accurate? Maybe. The lack of QC or skilled assembly means you are really rolling the dice here. The manufacturer can make as little as 10-15% and sell very high volume, or choose to make as much as 40-50% and push that $1k mark. The quality of parts/assembly/QC doesn't change much.

As your price begins to increase, things start to change a bit.

The next step is what companies like BCM and SOLGW are doing. They manufacture very little of their own parts; but they send prints and specs to vendors and have parts made to those specs. The vendor QC checks parts before shipping, then the companies individually check the parts again upon receipt. This takes time, requires additional employment and payroll costs, and adds overhead.

Here we start to see proper interference fits between barrel and receiver, gas block, etc. Feed ramps are properly cut and polished for the most part at this price point. Gas ports tend to be correct or lightly oversized for weak ammo; something like 10-15% over. Assembly staff is well trained, has proper tools and assembly fixtures, and generally has a good understanding of how the rifle operates and how parts should interact. Most rifles in this tier undergo several QC checks for assembly along the way. Sometimes cosmetics or small detail work is missed, but the heart of the rifle is built properly and thoroughly inspected.

Companies in this tier generally will sell out faster, produce smaller numbers, and have frequent issues with out of stock products. That is because they are sourcing parts from 1 vender that has their design print. If that vendor doesn't have any barrels ready to ship, they don't simply move on to the next cheapest vendor. They wait for the product they designed and meets their specs.

These rifles will have much fewer issues with suppressor use, high rounds counts either in short duration or over the life of the rifle. You will see less problems like bolt lug or waist failures. Rifle-to-rifle quality control will be greatly improved. A more expensive product, but one that is ultimately more consistent. Rifles at this level will see no issues going 10k+ with proper schedule maintenance.

Most high-end companies that push past the $2k mark are machining their own components, have proprietary systems, or both. Quality control and consistency tends to be extremely high as the entire process is company controlled.

Obviously these are generalizations, and I could go into more detail; however this post is already quite long.

The biggest question in all of this is: what is your intended use case?

If all you're looking for is a reasonably accurate rifles for backyard blasting, hunting, or other infrequent low-intensity use case; buy any AR and roll. Short of QC issues that deadline the gun, you won't notice things like over gassing, or shoot enough to see premature parts failure. This is what the first group of companies are counting on.

If you are going to shoot competition, take courses to improve your training/familiarity with the rifle (which tend to be fairly high intensity; 1-2k rounds in 48-72 hours), use a suppressor, or bet your life or the lives of loved ones to the function of that rifle; I highly encourage doing a bit more research and buying a complete rifle from a company that has a good QC department.

A good metaphor:

If you are skydiving with 10 men; would you rather each parachute have been individually packed and inspected by a well trained pro, or 1 out of the 10 was checked and the rest are being trusted on blind faith it was done correctly? What if your chute isn't the one that got inspected?

 

[teddy12b]

I agree… competitive shooting, a whole other ballgame and I can understand putting in the big bucks!

I don’t knock anyone either. I may bust my friends chops for owning a $3000 AR that still in a safe. Lol. I hope my post didn’t come off as that. All I was trying to convey is that I’m happy with my purchase especially after running it along side a much nicer firearm.

I didn't take any offense to it either. Honestly, I just see a lot of reasons for buying inexpensively and expensively and ultimately I'd much rather have every fine American with a rifle that they zeroed than no rifle at all.

 

[Creedmoor]

Not just ARs, I learned on the INGO that the cheapest 1911 is just
as good if not better than the high dollar ones and red dot optics, the cheap ones are way better.

Tim taught members, buy this cheap 1911 and then dump another wheel barrow on money into it so it runs well. Purple if needed.

 

[teddy12b]

We have been talking about buying a AR in 300, I must have a few thou empty's I have picked up the last few years at the club. There is a guy that shoots a few hundred 223s and a hundred 300's every week. I hear him shooting and I head to the range to pickup what he leaves on the ground.
I have a set of dies so I can load for a friend. I'm just missing a rifle. I think we are leaning towards a SBR.

Perfect personal example on a 300 blackout. I bought a PSA 16" 300 blackout upper because it was on sale dirt cheap. It's on a PSA lower with an Aero build kit. This is probably the least amount of $$ I've ever had in a single AR, but my intent is to fire a box or two of hunting ammo through it to zero for deer season and then hunt with it. Once that's done, I'm back to being a 5.56 guy. For my purposes, for that particular AR, just about anything will work to pop a deer at 100 yards or less.

 

[Expat]

Tim taught members, buy this cheap 1911 and then dump another wheel barrow on money into it so it runs well. Purple if needed.

He made the mistake of criticizing minor issues like crappy metallurgy in the frames a few times and started avoiding the conversations as much as possible. He learned that the cheaper the better was the way.

 

[Creedmoor]

Perfect personal example on a 300 blackout. I bought a PSA 16" 300 blackout upper because it was on sale dirt cheap. It's on a PSA lower with an Aero build kit. This is probably the least amount of $$ I've ever had in a single AR, but my intent is to fire a box or two of hunting ammo through it to zero for deer season and then hunt with it. Once that's done, I'm back to being a 5.56 guy. For my purposes, for that particular AR, just about anything will work to pop a deer at 100 yards or less.

And thats about the use that what we are thinking about buying. I have a few of the INGO lowers that are in need of being finished. We are talking about an SBR with maybe a 10 1/2" with a can.
I have a zillion 147 grain pulls to feed it on the cheap.
We will have more invested in the can and the stamp than the gun.

 

[Dean C.]

For fun yeah absolutely nothing wrong with a budget AR, as others have mentioned it's fantastic people can get pretty reliable rifles for sub $400~ especially with inflation.

That being said for someone who shoots a lot and uses it as a HD rifle I would suggest buying from one of the "mid level" brands like Colt, BCM, DD , LWRC or others in the $1000-$1500 range. Stacking tolerances is a thing, I like that my rifle is borderline 100% stock internally minus the trigger. But I have always been a buy it how you want it set up person.

Now optics is a whole other story , a good very high quality red dot can be had for $500~. Actually good glass costs double thta roughly depending on your magnification range and goes up from there.

 

[Creedmoor]

He made the mistake of criticizing minor issues like crappy metallurgy in the frames a few times and started avoiding the conversations as much as possible. He learned that the cheaper the better was the way.

I miss our arguments, err discussions. Not just over 1911's but it could be over the oiling systems in Pan and Shovelhead Harley engines.

 

[bwframe]

I've never bought an AR. Certainly bought some parts though. I had some really sharp INGOers lead me into building years ago.

I tend to throw more money at the critical parts. That said, there is something to companies that make budget parts and stay in business for the long term, while growing the company name.

We "are supposed" to have problems with components from Palmetto and Anderson, right? I really haven't seen this, in the modern day.

The rifles I built early on were quite an investment. These days, I've grown to start with the poverty pony's and upgrade as needed. Makes it easier to justify premium trigger money and decent dollars for sighting systems.

 

[teddy12b]

And thats about the use that what we are thinking about buying. I have a few of the INGO lowers that are in need of being finished. We are talking about an SBR with maybe a 10 1/2" with a can.
I have a zillion 147 grain pulls to feed it on the cheap.
We will have more invested in the can and the stamp than the gun.

I got lucky that I had an extra muzzle device laying around so I can make one simple swap and put the can on it.

 

[Leo]

I learned in racing, speed costs money, every small increase costs lots more.

It is the same with accuracy. A slightly improved model is some more than a basic. the next step up costs a lot more, the top shelf costs lots and lots, and lots more, and then some.

 

[55fairlane]

I learned in racing, speed costs money, every small increase costs lots more.

It is the same with accuracy. A slightly improved model is some more than a basic. the next step up costs a lot more, the top shelf costs lots and lots, and lots more, and then some.

In both racing & shooting, at a certain point it costs WAY more to pick up the last little of bit.....here is were we must ask ourselves, is it really honestly worth it??

Yes white oak is better then Rock River Arms, but to the average person is it worth the extra cost. And even I struggle with this.

 

[Leo]

In both racing & shooting, at a certain point it costs WAY more to pick up the last little of bit.....here is were we must ask ourselves, is it really honestly worth it??

Yes white oak is better then Rock River Arms, but to the average person is it worth the extra cost. And even I struggle with this.

Imagine the cost of buying a full sized benchrest barrel blank from HART barrels and having a gunsmith turn a spacegun barrel out of it, AND chamber it with a chamber reamer that was custom machined to your personal design by Clymer. Been there, done that. In fact I did it a second time with a service rifle. OCD generally comes out when involved in competition.

On a National Match course, a hard holder with good eyes can make expert with a rifle that cost less than I spent on barrels and reamers.

 

[55fairlane]

OCD generally comes out when involved in competition.

Your preaching to the (OCD) driver ......where you on my race team as we threw common sense out the window and chased a national championship........HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMM......I'm seeing a pattern here.....OCD......nation championship....nation matches......big horsepower.......across the course.......win/loose by ..007 of a second........win/loose by the X count..........

I once convinced myself if I polish the inside of the wheels, I will have less drag on the car and pick up .0001's of a second......OCD......

 

[55fairlane]

Imagine the cost of buying a full sized benchrest barrel blank from HART barrels and having a gunsmith turn a spacegun barrel out of it, AND chamber it with a chamber reamer that was custom machined to your personal design by Clymer. Been there, done that. In fact I did it a second time with a service rifle. OCD generally comes out when involved in competition.

On a National Match course, a hard holder with good eyes can make expert with a rifle that cost less than I spent on barrels and reamers.

While I'm at it imagine someone machineing up his own light weight AR rimfire barrel so, he can "skirt" the rules in rimfire sporter competition........

 

[HonkieKowboy]

My AR cost $500-600 but has a wilson combat BCG and ballistic advantage barrel.

How? Via the simple process of "min-maxing". Aka spend as little as possible on things that dont matter as much, then splurge a bit on things that do.

So on an AR15 the two components you really need to do right so the gun doesnt explode on you is the BCG and barrel. The rest (ie lower, upper, buffer tube, fcg) you only really have to make sure it goes together right.

 

[Brayh92]

I think it's more a to each there own kind of thing. To guys that shoot competition I get having a high dollar rifle that is high speed. For us guys that like to target shoot and play around with our ar's then I think a budget gun is a great way to go. I own three and none cost more than 700 and i couldn't be happier with hoe they perform for what I do with them.

 

[Airtevron1]

$500.00 is far too expensive