9mm vs .40, vs .45 ACP new FBI testing (let the fun begin)

[John Galt]

One of my favorite carry guns is a Guncrafter Industries .50 cal. An easy shooting .50 caliber in a 1911 frame ......
It's the answer to the question "What would Jesus carry?"

 

[pudly]

Here is the FBI executive summary for why they are recommending the 9mm.

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | LooseRounds.com

 

[Redhorse]

I wonder if letting the agents choose their own carry guns with a minimum/maximum caliber size would aid them. After all, letting them choose the gun that THEY'RE most comfortable with for their own self protection would probably be in their best interest. After all, we're always telling everyone that the gun they shoot best that may save their life one day is the one they're most comfortable with.

The only issue is with getting them repaired, and supplying ammo. The solution I think is giving the agents a stiffen to get their gun repaired/service weapon purchased, and filling out order forms for their ammo. They already order ammo anyways, that's a given. Having about four or five different types to order while knowing how many agents shoot what wouldnt be rocket science.

Like I said, let them choose what may save their lives.

 

[mrortega]

When a 180 gr .40 Gold Dot will completely knock a swinging gong 180 degrees to fully vertical that a 124gr+P 9mm just popped back 90 degrees I'll choose the .40. That's some serious momentum.

 

[Water63]

Lots of arguments (almost all are right) on both sides. Personally I think the 45 ACP "New" designed bullets are quite a bit superior to the "New" 9MM bullets. I do agree the new 9mm is probably as effective as the "Old" 45 ACP round nose designed prior to WW1.

I also think a lot of the decision process determining the "Best" caliber handgun for the Military, State and Local Police, and Federal officers is based on the fact today there are a lot more females employed and actively shooting these firearms. Although some females are comfortable with the weight and recoil of a 45 ACP using +P+ ammo, many just do not have the strength or stature to handle the firearm easily and those individuals probably couldn't achieve the accuracy needed. A second factor is cost of firearms and ammo ~ the 9 is a huge winner in this catagory.

I can't prove it but from the targets I have shot using small fast bullets and slower heavy bullets, the indications are that the "shock" of the heavy / larger round is much higher. This would indicate that a 45 would have a better chance of incapacitating an attacker. If I am under attack that is pretty darn important to me!

However I am aging and my EDC carry (for over 20 years), is my Colt Double Eagle, but is becoming heavier and with the clothing I now wear, harder to conceal. I find myself carrying a 38 spl derringer more often, and if finances allow, intend to purchase a Kimber Solo 9mm soon.

Do I think it is as good a defense weapon as a 45? Nope, but I do think it will do enough to keep me safe! As I don't travel much any more (retired) and don't really go into most "hazardous" areas, (can't dance ~ don't drink much anymore so---).

Well put while I carry a 40 now I find myself carrying base on the comfort level for that day. Ammo in general has made vast improvements in the past few years.
Carry what you like.

 

[in625shooter]

I wonder if letting the agents choose their own carry guns with a minimum/maximum caliber size would aid them. After all, letting them choose the gun that THEY'RE most comfortable with for their own self protection would probably be in their best interest. After all, we're always telling everyone that the gun they shoot best that may save their life one day is the one they're most comfortable with.

The only issue is with getting them repaired, and supplying ammo. The solution I think is giving the agents a stiffen to get their gun repaired/service weapon purchased, and filling out order forms for their ammo. They already order ammo anyways, that's a given. Having about four or five different types to order while knowing how many agents shoot what wouldnt be rocket science.

Like I said, let them choose what may save their lives.

I wish it was that simple. I say this as someone that has worked for some kind of agency for the last 28 years and as a firearms instructor. There is a big difference between Joe Public using what they want and when it is issued by a LE or Military agency. When it comes to agency firearms most want the same across the board. This is is for the same manual of arms, training and although some call BS just the world we live in Liability and legal issues. Agencies want the same across the board. I personally like revolvers and M&P's however on duty I have to use and teach what they issue.

As far as getting a stiffin there are several problems with this. One is bureaucracy, try getting any agency overseers of money to sign off on that let alone deviate from/change the policy is already mentioned. Then there is the big problem of a certain percentage of staff (sometimes 60% or better) simply will not take it upon themselves to practice on their own time with any firearm, shooting or tactics let alone perform any firearms upkeep. Thus it is dumbed down and the agency dictates they issue the weapon, ammo and perform routine inspections on said equipment. Then they can not say it was the firearms fault.

When a 180 gr .40 Gold Dot will completely knock a swinging gong 180 degrees to fully vertical that a 124gr+P 9mm just popped back 90 degrees I'll choose the .40. That's some serious momentum.

This is a common misunderstanding on the performance of ammunition. While yes on the outside it appears that a 40 180 or 45 cal 230 grain anything hits so hard over a 9mm game over it's not all energy. What is more important is what that 9mm JHP does on the inside in tissue ie expansion and penetration. Other than a steel target or a bowling pin a hard hit alone is not enough. That is why the 9mm is on a equal scale to the 45 now vs 25 years ago. The ammo companies have gotten the penetration and expansion down to a good combination that makes it work and work well. Even through certain barriers with the advances in bonded bullets.

While we all can have our favorite rounds (I like 45's too, just look at my Avatar) anyone that says a 9mm is not effective is living in the past with those that think you shouldn't shoot 38 specials in a 357 mag either.

They all work pretty good with none of them winning over the other by a car length or anything.

 

[zippy23]

I dont like the argument of.....there have been recent advances in technology that has brought the 9mm back.......those same advances were made in other calibers as well, so if the numbers improve for 9mm, then they improve for the other calibers as well!! shoot what you shoot well. I think thats what makes the most sense, if technology has made the argument of which bullet is better a pointless argument, then it boils down to what you are best at. Small guys with small hands prolly wont shoot a .45 as well as a 9mm, but who knows, maybe they would. I think the last paragraph stated .40 was the best, which i agree with 100%.

 

[in625shooter]

I dont like the argument of.....there have been recent advances in technology that has brought the 9mm back.......those same advances were made in other calibers as well, so if the numbers improve for 9mm, then they improve for the other calibers as well!! shoot what you shoot well. I think thats what makes the most sense, if technology has made the argument of which bullet is better a pointless argument, then it boils down to what you are best at. Small guys with small hands prolly wont shoot a .45 as well as a 9mm, but who knows, maybe they would. I think the last paragraph stated .40 was the best, which i agree with 100%.

There is more to it than numbers. While the improvements have benefited all the calibers some the 9mm has benefited the most and gained an equal footing with (caught up to) the 45 and more often than not out performs the 40 in many many documented LE shootings. The 9mm is faster than both the 40 and 45 so that equals more expansion and materials used in the bullets now are penetrating to where they need for optimum performance where 25 years ago with the materials they were making bullets they were not expanding or penetrating at 9mm velocities so back then the bigger the better unless you had a 1400 fps bullet (aka 357 mag)

The reason a lot of LE agencies are dropping the 40 for the 9 or sometimes the 45 is mentioned above as well as that most 40 cal guns suffer from accelerated wear due to the 40 being a high pressure round thus the firearms are not lasting and since the performance is not leaps and bounds better why use it when 9mm and 45 cal guns work as good if not better and last a lot longer.

 

[JT1968]

I believe that infamous Miami shoot out was finally ended when an agent fired the last shots with a 38 special revolver. S&W model 13 was it? There have been some advancements in 38 special ammo as well. I carry a 9mm caliber hand gun regularly. However on occasion I carry a S&W 647.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

9mm vs. 45acp... woo hoo!
Now all we have to do is fire up a good ole' Glock vs. 1911 discussion to weave into the mix

I saw more than one 1911 fail at the IDPA State Match today. All Glocks ran 100%... just say'n

 

[in625shooter]

9mm vs. 45acp... woo hoo!
Now all we have to do is fire up a good ole' Glock vs. 1911 discussion to weave into the mix

I saw more than one 1911 fail at the IDPA State Match today. All Glocks ran 100%... just say'n

As did the wheelguns! The whole 9mm vs 45 debate was already quashed a while ago, some just haven't accepted the memo

But if a true caliber debate was to ensue here is my contribution

 

[croy]

9mm will kill the body but the 45 kills the soul

 

[Redhorse]

I wish it was that simple. I say this as someone that has worked for some kind of agency for the last 28 years and as a firearms instructor. There is a big difference between Joe Public using what they want and when it is issued by a LE or Military agency. When it comes to agency firearms most want the same across the board. This is is for the same manual of arms, training and although some call BS just the world we live in Liability and legal issues. Agencies want the same across the board. I personally like revolvers and M&P's however on duty I have to use and teach what they issue.

As far as getting a stiffin there are several problems with this. One is bureaucracy, try getting any agency overseers of money to sign off on that let alone deviate from/change the policy is already mentioned. Then there is the big problem of a certain percentage of staff (sometimes 60% or better) simply will not take it upon themselves to practice on their own time with any firearm, shooting or tactics let alone perform any firearms upkeep. Thus it is dumbed down and the agency dictates they issue the weapon, ammo and perform routine inspections on said equipment. Then they can not say it was the firearms fault.

I understand, it was just an innocent thought. I wish it were that simple too because I like the idea of people being able to make their own decisions about certain matters but you're completly right about the issue with training, gun maintenance, etc. It just doesn't happen in the real world. Sure, some and/or many agents would do what tehy were suppose to, but it'd only take one to ruin it. Plus there's advantages to uniformity. It's just too bad some agents, LEO's, etc. (with seniority, extra training, or something of the sort) couldn't earn the privilege to make their own decision about what they want to carry. Some people just do better with different things if that makes sense. Still, a well thought out response sir.

 

[Redhorse]

I wish it was that simple. I say this as someone that has worked for some kind of agency for the last 28 years and as a firearms instructor. There is a big difference between Joe Public using what they want and when it is issued by a LE or Military agency. When it comes to agency firearms most want the same across the board. This is is for the same manual of arms, training and although some call BS just the world we live in Liability and legal issues. Agencies want the same across the board. I personally like revolvers and M&P's however on duty I have to use and teach what they issue.

As far as getting a stiffin there are several problems with this. One is bureaucracy, try getting any agency overseers of money to sign off on that let alone deviate from/change the policy is already mentioned. Then there is the big problem of a certain percentage of staff (sometimes 60% or better) simply will not take it upon themselves to practice on their own time with any firearm, shooting or tactics let alone perform any firearms upkeep. Thus it is dumbed down and the agency dictates they issue the weapon, ammo and perform routine inspections on said equipment. Then they can not say it was the firearms fault.





This is a common misunderstanding on the performance of ammunition. While yes on the outside it appears that a 40 180 or 45 cal 230 grain anything hits so hard over a 9mm game over it's not all energy. What is more important is what that 9mm JHP does on the inside in tissue ie expansion and penetration. Other than a steel target or a bowling pin a hard hit alone is not enough. That is why the 9mm is on a equal scale to the 45 now vs 25 years ago. The ammo companies have gotten the penetration and expansion down to a good combination that makes it work and work well. Even through certain barriers with the advances in bonded bullets.

While we all can have our favorite rounds (I like 45's too, just look at my Avatar) anyone that says a 9mm is not effective is living in the past with those that think you shouldn't shoot 38 specials in a 357 mag either.

They all work pretty good with none of them winning over the other by a car length or anything.

See above post, I messed up quoting in6245shooter.

 

[D-Ric902]

Easy answer........357 magnum

 

[N8RV]

Ok guys handguns suck. Here is an illustration. This weekend we volunteered to help the IT guy out and permanently disable some computer hard drives from work.

Apparently a hard drive will stop a 9mm:

A hard drive will also stop 230 grain .45 acp ball:

My 200 grain LSWC loaded to major did not fair any better:

This is some really good info, Vert, and demonstrates the point of the article pretty well. None of the handgun rounds will penetrate a computer hard drive, so they're all pretty much on equal footing. The moral of the story, therefore, is ...

IF ATTACKED BY A COMPUTER, DROP THE HANDGUN AND GRAB YOUR AR!

 

[VERT]

The AR shredded those bad boys! Do you really think I didn't go to the range with a contingency plan?

 

[IndyGunSafety]

I think the author forgot to mention that .45 is simply superior to all other pistol cartridges

Exactly.....