Active shooter situation at Noblesville West Middle School

[bwframe]

Evil is a solid argument, but I don't buy that there is nothing that could have been done to thwart this shooting.

There are people around this youth who should have been looking for indicators of the evil. He should have had no access to the weapons he used.

 

[chezuki]

He also supposedly posted on social media the day before stating he was going to “shoot up the school”.

 

[churchmouse]

He also supposedly posted on social media the day before stating he was going to “shoot up the school”.

Far to many turn a blind eye.

 

[Thor]

See something, say something, be chastised for being insensitive...then have every one accuse you after the fact of not doing anything. If this was ever actually a thing it is way past broken. It's just aftermath tracking.

 

[bwframe]

We need to hold people accountable.

 

[KLB]

Evil is a solid argument, but I don't buy that there is nothing that could have been done to thwart this shooting.

There are people around this youth who should have been looking for indicators of the evil. He should have had no access to the weapons he used.

I wasn't saying anything about this specific instance. I was speaking to being able to eliminate these things from ever happening.

 

[KellyinAvon]

As long as there are humans there will be evil. Deterring evil and thus creating a safe environment is a goal.

Concentric rings of security based on the level of protection required works on military bases. Different situation, but look at what works, and what doesn't.

The "metal detector Moms" are making the news. My first question is "That's nice, how ya gonna pay for it?" Seriously, the actual cost to acquire, maintain, operate, staff, repair, upgrade, and replace. Second question, "Did you just create a choke-point and a soft target?"

 

[rob63]

There is a line every time I go to the courthouse, even though there are just a handful of people arriving at the same time. A small airport, that has dozens of people arriving at once, produces lines that take 15 minutes to go through. A large airport will result in a wait of half an hour or more.

A small school has 500 kids arriving at once, large schools 3000+, all of them with backpacks. What do you consider a reasonable wait to get in, 2-4 hours? How many security checkpoints are you willing to fund at each school to get a reasonable wait time, 20-30? You would have to cut corners, to get wait times down to a reasonable period, that would make it all pointless anyway.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think security checkpoints is a truly viable option.

I do think it is worth, at least, reconsidering the idea that every boy that is overactive in 1st or 2nd grade should be put on amphetamines. It may not be possible to prove that it is related, but it seems like a bad idea on the face of it.

 

[churchmouse]

There is a line every time I go to the courthouse, even though there are just a handful of people arriving at the same time. A small airport, that has dozens of people arriving at once, produces lines that take 15 minutes to go through. A large airport will result in a wait of half an hour or more.

A small school has 500 kids arriving at once, large schools 3000+, all of them with backpacks. What do you consider a reasonable wait to get in, 2-4 hours? How many security checkpoints are you willing to fund at each school to get a reasonable wait time, 20-30? You would have to cut corners, to get wait times down to a reasonable period, that would make it all pointless anyway.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think security checkpoints is a truly viable option.

I do think it is worth, at least, reconsidering the idea that every boy that is overactive in 1st or 2nd grade should be put on amphetamines. It may not be possible to prove that it is related, but it seems like a bad idea on the face of it.

In all of this we have no clear cut answers.


"BUT"..........every single one of these troubled kids has announced their intentions in more than one way yet no one responds. No one gets involved. This is one way we can stop this insanity. Get involved.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

There is a line every time I go to the courthouse, even though there are just a handful of people arriving at the same time. A small airport, that has dozens of people arriving at once, produces lines that take 15 minutes to go through. A large airport will result in a wait of half an hour or more.

A small school has 500 kids arriving at once, large schools 3000+, all of them with backpacks. What do you consider a reasonable wait to get in, 2-4 hours? How many security checkpoints are you willing to fund at each school to get a reasonable wait time, 20-30? You would have to cut corners, to get wait times down to a reasonable period, that would make it all pointless anyway.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think security checkpoints is a truly viable option.

I do think it is worth, at least, reconsidering the idea that every boy that is overactive in 1st or 2nd grade should be put on amphetamines. It may not be possible to prove that it is related, but it seems like a bad idea on the face of it.

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

 

[churchmouse]

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

Bingo. To many "Experts"

 

[KLB]

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

Excellent point. I've met exactly one truly hyperactive child in my 50+ years on this Earth. It was obvious there was something wrong with him. The rest of the children I have seen labeled as such were no more than children acting like children. Schools today want little compliant zombies in classrooms, so they drug the students.

 

[JLJK]

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

Yep. Consequences to our actions. We were taught that as kids but kids today are not. Trophies for losers. No corporal punishment. No consequences.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dusty88]

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

I think the ADHD "differences" are real but overdiagnosed. I also don't think it should be called a "disease". People with those characteristics have trouble doing some things well but conversely really excel at certain things.

Anyway, how it's approached is more an issue for me than whether or not a family chooses to try medication. Schools have created the attitude of "accommodations". I hear it now from my own kids and from my millenial employees "well I am (fill in the blank....depressed, anxious, ADD, etc) and that's why I didn't get this done right". Helping people understand and work with their strengths and weaknesses is a good thing. We have more knowledge about behavior than we did a few decades ago. Treating it as an excuse is quite something else.

Teaching them that nothing is their responsibility has translated to very low resiliency, IMO. I don't know if that has anything to do with a few school shootings, but it certainly isn't helping kids function. 30 years ago the only people that cried at work were the ones that just saw something tragic... like a pet dying. This decade I have employees crying because they are a little bit sick, because somebody got mad at them, because they got a cut on their finger, because it's not their turn to have a Saturday off. They break down and have to go home sometimes after a minor corrective meeting. And I'm not even mean.

 

[ghuns]

...And I'm not even mean.

Says you.

 

[bwframe]

Just tuned into WIBC. Guy Relford is subbing for Tony Katz. He just started the hour talking about this shooter. Dunno where he's going with it...

https://tunein.com/radio/WIBC-931-s52361/

 

[jamil]

Evil is a solid argument, but I don't buy that there is nothing that could have been done to thwart this shooting.

There are people around this youth who should have been looking for indicators of the evil. He should have had no access to the weapons he used.

Sure, there are things that could have been done, but it's a lot easier to determine what things could have been done in hindsight. It's easier to see the things missed after you've discovered what the missed things were.

But anyway, I'd like to get into the discussion of "evil" a bit more. And this is probably in a different context than what we're discussing here. I'm talking about a general attitude I see that that just blames it on "evil" without going deeper. I don't think "evil" is a particularly helpful description of what's motivating these kids. It is in an overgeneralized sort of cop out.

Okay fine. Every instance of people doing bad things to other people is "evil". Yeah, so what now? How does that describe the pathology? We need an understanding deeper than "evil". We need something more deterministic. There IS a cause, and I suppose people who don't care to think of it any deeper than "evil" can be satisfied with shaking their heads and tsking and promoting their pet causes and boxed solutions.

Dude got pissed because he was turned down by a girl, so he shot her? WTF?

Okay. So, most people are conditioned to handle rejection, at least enough that they they don't try to shoot people when they're rejected. So what's different about this kid? That question doesn't appear to me so difficult to figure out that we have to give up and call "evil". The solution doesn't seem all that simple, but it seems reasonable to me that discovering the causes shouldn't be difficult, if we can be honest about it.

We're (adversarial "we're") not honest about it when we use these shootings to pitch solutions for political goals, rather than solutions for the actual problem.

The anti-gun zealots try to lay the moral outrage at the feet of the NRA/gun owners. If moral outrage has a legitimate group to blame, a much better case can be made that the blame for why we can't figure out what is going on with these kids, belongs at the feet of people who insist that the problem is their political foil. I don't think it's a societal problem. I think it's an individual human problem.

But activists can't allow a sane discussion of the problem because it always has to be about the foil. Regardless of the availability of guns, or fortifying schools, or arming teachers with guns, or law enforcement doing their jobs, or properly detecting the signs that someone is about to shoot a bunch of people, there's a reason why that 14 year old kid couldn't handle rejection. There's a reason why he thought that shooting the girl who rejected him was the solution.

That reason is deeper than simply "evil". It's deeper than simply banning guns. It's deeper than all those other solutions which at best only attempt to provide a better reaction. The problem is deeper than "evil", but it's more possible to discover the cause when we allow it to be framed as narrow as it is. A 14 year old dude shot a girl because she rejected him.

 

[ghuns]

 

[jamil]

When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, those kids were called "brats" and were dealt with without medication - just a swat on the knuckles or the butt when needed. Seemed to work just fine with no ill effects.

A swat on the knuckles doesn't really fix the problem. At most it may provide temporary behavioral adjustments. So I don't know that I'd say it works fine will no ill effects. I've known plenty of kids who had their knuckles swatted in school. It must not have been all that effective because it tended to be the same kids getting their knuckles swatted often enough to say it obviously didn't take.

But I get what you're saying. The bratty kids tended to be undisciplined. If they're allowed to be brats at home, whatever discipline the get at school isn't likely to fix the problem.

 

[bwframe]

Yep!