AK Safety Reminder

[AdamP123]

Indeed, sometimes without fingers on triggers.

Thus if one is clearing a firearm before one goes downrange to check target, let's say any firearm at random, oh, let's say an AK-47, one should look at the breech and LOOK BACK at the bolt face to ensure that there are no cartridges present.

LOL

If you need to "look back" at your bolt face to make sure the weapon is safe, you are CLEARLY doing something wrong. Simple as that. Sorry. This thread is the equivalent of "guns are dangerous".

 

[Kirk Freeman]

LOL

If you need to "look back" at your bolt face to make sure the weapon is safe, you are CLEARLY doing something wrong. Simple as that. Sorry. This thread is the equivalent of "guns are dangerous".

1. Rounds stick to the bolt face.

2. Rounds sticking back create a hazard of a round cooking off even if your finger is not on the trigger and the weapon is on safe while you skip downrange to check targets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO18uWPcnko

(+10 INGO points if anyone knows who is shooting the Galil in the above video)

3. A important item on the safety briefing when training on the AK platform is to inspect the face of the bolt when clearing the weapon as the cartridge can stick to the bolt face and appear to be empty if one merely looks front and not back.

Look front, look back, look front, look back. Knowledge is power and training is the path to power.

 

[AdamP123]

1. Rounds stick to the bolt face.

1. We have already established this. They also easily eject if you cycle the action with the slightest amount of effort. Rounds stick to the bolt face and rechamber only if you are absolutely clueless as to how to how the rifle functions. They do not stick to the bolt face if you properly rack/cycle the rifle.

2. Rounds sticking back create a hazard of a round cooking off even if your finger is not on the trigger and the weapon is on safe while you skip downrange to check targets.

2. See my #1. Also, how much are you having your students shooting in a short period of time that you are actually concerned about a cook-off round (serious question)? If you are having your students shoot to the point where you are legitimately concerned about a cook-off round, you are likely doing something very wrong with your instruction sessions.

3. A important item on the safety briefing when training on the AK platform is to inspect the face of the bolt when clearing the weapon as the cartridge can stick to the bolt face and appear to be empty if one merely looks front and not back.

3. Are you instructing your students to check for an "empty" bolt face while they have a loaded mag in the rifle? It is not possible to miss a "loaded" bolt by failing to "look back" at the bolt as I have clearly shown in my photo. If you take issue with this, explain to me why my photo misrepresents a bolt that has a live round attached to it.

Look front, look back, look front, look back. Knowledge is power and training is the path to power.

Ya don't say...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

1. No, we haven't as you keep denying it. All kinds of strange crap happens with guns, that's why we work to be careful and not sloppy know-it-all reckless in our complacency. Rounds can and do stick to the bolt face as heat, the composition of the ammunition, and blind chance all conspire to make it happen.

2. Malfunctions, including cook offs, are ALWAYS a danger. This is why we are always careful. It does not take that long to make a weapon hot enough to cook off.

3. What? To clear a weapon, one takes the magazine out first, then runs the charging handle several times (ideally at 90 instead of the gun shop clear). The AK platform has no hold open, thus the bolt goes forward (range flags are a good idea here). Sometimes a cartridge sticks on the bolt face and re-chambers the round unobserved by the shooter, creating a potential hazard when people go skipping out in front of the weapon. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Treating this hazard as not applying to a certain snowflake because they are special is foolhardy which is why I raise it.

4. I have to say it as INGO fights me on being safe with guns all the time. Thus, I must say it, over and over and over.

 

[AdamP123]

All kinds of strange crap happens with guns...

I hate it when rounds jump from out of nowhere and enter my chamber. Seriously! It is annoying.

Rounds can and do stick to the bolt face..

I am guessing you are not a student of firearms function when it comes to AKs. Yes. We have established this, but perhaps, you were not following. Let me make this simple for you. The ejector ejects rounds from a rifle and, thus, the bolt face. Does that not make sense for you? Let me know if it does not. I can explain it to you via PM.

2. Malfunctions, including cook offs, are ALWAYS a danger.

OK. Is a cook-off a danger after one round is fired? Is it a danger after no rounds are fired? After 500 rounds fired? Is a cook-off a danger when in Alaska, in the midst of winter, with a rifle that hasn't been fired in 3 years? Is a cook-off really ALWAYS a danger? Please explain.

3. What? To clear a weapon, one takes the magazine out first..

Of course. This is elementary. I'm just trying to figure out how this imaginary/magical round enters the chamber of someone's rifle in which you are instructing.

3. Sometimes a cartridge sticks on the bolt face and re-chambers the round unobserved by the shooter....

Oh my goodness. Are you actually a licensed to instruct people on the handling of firearms?

 

[d.kaufman]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Dude, they fight me. Every single time I bring up safety, they fight me.

This is why we have ADs/NDs because people want to argue and not listen.

 

[Gabriel]

Oh my goodness. Are you actually a licensed to instruct people on the handling of firearms?

Are you?

 

[AdamP123]

Dude, they fight me. Every single time I bring up safety, they fight me.

Yep. I woke up yesterday and was like "Screw safety! I'm gonna go and fight safety today.".

You said:

"You DO need to look back to ensure nothing is stuck to the bolt face."

"As one holds the charging handle to the rear the round is not in the breech but is stuck to the bolt which is now at the back of the receiver."

"A important item on the safety briefing when training on the AK platform is to inspect the face of the bolt when clearing the weapon as the cartridge can stick to the bolt face and appear to be empty if one merely looks front and not back."

I am just letting you know that you are wrong. All of these statements are incorrect. Plain and simple...

I have shown in my photo in post #15 that you clearly do not need to look back at the bolt face to see if there is a round attached to the bolt. This is not complicated. You can also visualize the chamber. Now, if the mag is out of the rifle, I vigorously rack my rifle two or three times, and utilize the pictured method to check my rifle for "clear", where is this round coming from that it has the ability to enter the chamber within that 3/4" gap between the bolt face and chamber? Is the round going to jump out from somewhere in the action and attach itself to the bolt face by morphing it's shape in order to slither through that 3/4" gap?

Your initial reason for posting this safety issue was that the AK bolt/carrier requires almost full rearward travel for one to visualize a round that is "stuck" to the bolt face. I am simply showing you that you 100% incorrect. You can keep repeating the same stuff about safety and call people snowflakes, but it does not change the fact that you are wrong and, regardless of how many times you repeat the same thing, you will still be wrong.

Now, is looking at the bolt face a horrible idea for someone who is absolutely clueless as to how the AK function? No. It is not a bad idea. I am not trying to make this argument. Is it necessary for someone like me who actually understands how firearms function and who is not in possession of magical rounds that have the ability to alter the space-time continuum? No.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yep. I woke up yesterday and was like "Screw safety! I'm gonna go and fight safety today.".

I know. I have fought you for years. The "all you need", the "works for me", the "I've never had it happen", I wage an endless war against firearms complacency. I expect the fight.

I have shown in my photo in post #15 that you clearly do not need to look back at the bolt face to see if there is a round attached to the bolt.

You most certainly do. When clearing the weapon individuals will be focused on the breech, not the bolt, which is often at the back of the receiver. There is enough space in the AK receiver that individuals will miss a cartrdige stuck to the bolt face, especially if this cartridge is the greenish/feld grau that .30RS often is.

Is the round going to jump out from somewhere in the action and attach itself to the bolt face by morphing it's shape in order to slither through that 3/4" gap?

What happens is that a round sticks to the bolt face and when the charging handle is released the weapon is now loaded.

Does it happen frequently? No. Can it happen? Yes.

Guns are mechanical devices. Strange stuff happens, ask anyone in the gun culture for decades and they will have examples of strange mechanical failures. If the space shuttle can blow up twice, the stamp piece of metal in front of your face which costs a fraction of a fraction less than the space shuttle can fail too.

Your initial reason for posting this safety issue was that the AK bolt/carrier requires almost full rearward travel for one to visualize a round that is "stuck" to the bolt face

Not required, but individuals often do this. When they do, you must instruct them that a cartridge can stick to the bolt face so it is vital that they look forward, at the breech, and then back at the bolt. I like to use fingers to verify, but some do not.

You can keep repeating the same stuff about safety and call people snowflakes,

Because snowflakes keep fighting me on safety. I have been in the gun culture a very long time. I know gun people are all safety wizards because they will not stop talking about it but then one takes a trip to a public range.

This quirk of the AK is a fine point, but a very important point. It can save a life so I share it so others can gain knowledge and lead to a safer, more educated gun culture which is the purpose of INGO.

Is it necessary for someone like me who actually understands how firearms function and who is not in possession of magical rounds that have the ability to alter the space-time continuum? No.

How many times have you heard "it's not loaded" only to clear a weapon and have a cartridge fall on the deck?

An INGOer who worked at a gun shop kept a large glass jar of rounds founds in "unloaded" weapons.

I am telling you how firearms function. You want to fight me. I am used to it.

Is it often? Nope. Is it something we need to be aware of? Yes, without question. I bring it to the attention of INGO so others may learn.

 

[AdamP123]

Kirk, if you want to make patently false statements and claim that they are true because of "safety", have at it. I have showed you exactly how you are wrong. It is plain as day. You can tell all of the fudd stories you want, but you are still wrong. Jars full of live rounds? Cool, but not at all relevant in regards to you being incorrect. You are not slightly wrong. You are not slightly right. You are wrong.

Incorrect: "You DO need to look back to ensure nothing is stuck to the bolt face." - Wrong. See post #15 in this thread.

Incorrect: "As one holds the charging handle to the rear the round is not in the breech but is stuck to the bolt which is now at the back of the receiver." - See post #15. Also, if the carrier was properly cycled fully rearward, the ejector would have kicked out the round well before the carrier hit the rear trunnion. If not, the rifle would constantly malfunction due to poor ejection, well before the safety check. Now, before you reprimand me on this because I am sure you will, I am not saying that one should assume that all is well "because the rifle ejects properly". I only mention this because you are talking about a super-rare scenario. One should still check after cycling.

Incorrect: "A important item on the safety briefing when training on the AK platform is to inspect the face of the bolt when clearing the weapon as the cartridge can stick to the bolt face and appear to be empty if one merely looks front and not back." - Wrong. See post #15. Please explain how the rifle "appears to be empty" in that photo.

Claims that are clearly and blatantly incorrect are not made correct just because you are making them under the guise of safety.

This quirk of the AK is a fine point, but a very important point.

Absolute nonsense. This is not a quirk that is somehow exclusive to the AK. Some of the stuff you have said make me strongly question your actual firearms experience, particularly with AKs.

Please explain the nuances of this quirk. Both rifles had the carrier moved back 1.2" and it was plain as day that where was a round in both rifles. Heck, I even took the AK photo from a rearward angle just to help your case a bit, but no dice. I did not measure, but I am sure that more of the round was exposed with the AK than it was with the AR. So, do enlighten me on this "fine point".

AK. Carrier moved back 1.2"...

AR. Carrier moved back 1.2"...

 

[KLB]

Hey Adam. Why don't you pull the bolt of your AK all the way back and put a round on the bolt, then move your head back and look into the chamber like you would when clearing the rifle. Would it be possible to not notice the round sitting on the bolt?

 

[AdamP123]

Hey Adam. Why don't you pull the bolt of your AK all the way back and put a round on the bolt, then move your head back and look into the chamber like you would when clearing the rifle. Would it be possible to not notice the round sitting on the bolt?

So, pretend the ejector does not exist or that it failed to eject the round? Depending on the lighting, one could miss it. Personally, I believe it is impossible to miss a round that is attached to an AK bolt face when the bolt/carrier is only pulled back slightly. I see no reason why it would be any easier when looking into a dark action.

This isn't about me having an issue with one looking back at the bolt face and I have no issues with someone being cautious. I have an issue with Kirk claiming that this is an issue that is somehow worse with AKs than it is with other rifles. That is total nonsense.

I'll get a picture for you if I can.

 

[AdamP123]

Hey Adam. Why don't you pull the bolt of your AK all the way back and put a round on the bolt, then move your head back and look into the chamber like you would when clearing the rifle. Would it be possible to not notice the round sitting on the bolt?

This turned out to very good suggestion. As you will see in my photos, it could certainly be possible for someone to look and think that the rifle is clear while there is indeed a round attached to the bolt face.

Personally, I'll keep using my methods and ignore the AK folklores told by Kirk...

Three photos, moving a bit upward with each photo...

Same thing from a different angle...

 

[indyartisan]

Filed under gun safety section OBTUSE

Observe
Because
Things
Unsafe
Sometimes
Exist

 

[chezuki]

I hate agreeing with Kirk as much as the next guy, but in this case, it can and does happen.

[video=youtube_share;JcqEMXXhNbw]http://youtu.be/JcqEMXXhNbw[/video]

 

[AdamP123]

I hate agreeing with Kirk as much as the next guy, but in this case, it can and does happen.

I don't think anyone has denied that failures can occur. All rifles can fail.

Thread Title: "AK Safety Reminder"

Failing to eject is not a problem that is unique to AKs and AKs are not any more difficult to inspect than ARs. Suggesting that an AK somehow takes more steps to inspect for safety than an AR or XYZ is just nonsense. The chamber is easier to inspect and visualize on an AK than it is on an AR.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I hate agreeing with Kirk as much as the next guy, but in this case, it can and does happen.

[video=youtube_share;JcqEMXXhNbw]http://youtu.be/JcqEMXXhNbw[/video]

You don't say. Imagine that. Mean, old Uncle Kirk wanting us to be safe, it's enough for me to throw a public tantrum and roll on the floor and cry.

 

[AdamP123]

You don't say. Imagine that. Mean, old Uncle Kirk wanting us to be safe, it's enough for me to throw a public tantrum and roll on the floor and cry.

Congratulations. There is a video of a AK failing to eject. It really changes nothing in terms of the points that I have made.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I don't think anyone has denied that failures can occur. All rifles can fail.

Thread Title: "AK Safety Reminder"

Failing to eject is not a problem that is unique to AKs and AKs are not any more difficult to inspect than ARs. Suggesting that an AK somehow takes more steps to inspect for safety than an AR or XYZ is just nonsense. The chamber is easier to inspect and visualize on an AK than it is on an AR.

Journal entry: Day 3,302 among the Gun Aspies.

I have now gained their trust by showing the Gun Aspies not to be so complacent around firearms.

Next I shall teach them to shave, to bathe before gun shows, to wear shirts with collars and how firearms work.