America 2020 in One Video - Michigan Woman Pulls Gun in Parking Lot

[Tombs]

Self defense is a hard argument to make when she exited the car to confront them again.

She should have stayed in the car. Back out slowly enough so you don't run over the idiot trying to block you in, and leave. If they try to force entry into your car, then you would be justified in shooting.

And if the idiot gets hit by your car, you're now charged with felony assault and battery, as well as motor vehicle violations.
Cops are all busy because of the riots, no one is coming to help you. What do you reasonably do? Her actions seem about as reasonable as possible and saved lives.

Any cop who would serve a warrant against someone in this situation is a sumbag.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Is it really on them to make sure they don't injure
someone that is trying to block a car from moving?

As far as I'm concerned that's on them if they get hurt. Walmart should have enough cameras to prove what was going on.

I am not a lawyer or officer, but their well being would be the last of my concern when they are looking to escalate the situation.

There is a difference between blocking someone in, and breaking windows to get in, or pull you out. Running someone over with your car is deadly force. In some situations, it is justified. I do not believe she was justified in pointing the gun at them, so I similarly believe that they would not have been justified in running them over. Back out slow enough to not run her over, she will either move, or she will intentionally go under the car, but the video will vindicate the driver. If the driver would have floored it in reverse and struck the woman, then he would be charged. I'm not saying I agree, I'm saying that's how it is.

Again, if she started hitting the car, trying to break windows or open doors, by all means, do what you gotta do. But don't run someone down for simply trying to block you in. Call the police, if that's a service available in your area. I would have no problem arresting that woman with Criminal Confinement.

And if the idiot gets hit by your car, you're now charged with felony assault and battery, as well as motor vehicle violations.
Cops are all busy because of the riots, no one is coming to help you. What do you reasonably do? Her actions seem about as reasonable as possible and saved lives.

Any cop who would serve a warrant against someone in this situation is a sumbag.

At what point did she reasonably fear for her life? She was in her car, and got back out to confront the instigators. Keep the gun in your lap, stay in the car. By exiting the car, she effectively gave up the ability to claim self defense. You can't claim self defense if you escalate a situation. Just drive away.

They were clearly looking for a reaction, but nothing they did would have placed the victims here in fear for their lives, nor did they try to enter their car. Castle Doctrine doesn't apply here. As much as it pains me to see someone charged with a crime for doing what she believed was right, a crime she did indeed commit. And in the end, the idiots who started this altercation have won, and that's the biggest tragedy of this story.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Ok, that I can agree with. Proceed as you normally would pulling out of a space ( no reason to gun it, definitely no reason to get out) if they intentionally remain in harm's way, then I would think any officer would not take it any further than telling the woman not to play in traffic. ( At least I would hope so).

That's if the woman actually would stick around and wait for police to show up.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I also have a question for CPT or any other officers, since you could possibly be dealing with a situation like this ( or have already)

Is it worth it for the people in the vehicle to continue on to a safe place, then call the police, or is that just waisting your time?

 

[phylodog]

Any cop who would serve a warrant against someone in this situation is a sumbag.

It ain't up to the cop. A warrant is an order from a judge to take someone into custody and bring them before the court. There is no choice involved on the officer's part. That said, and prosecutor who would charge these people and any judge who would allow this case to exist more than 30 seconds in a courtroom are scumbags.

Obviously a gun was not neccesary in this situation but I also don't have a huge problem with her getting it out. Those idiots were looking for a conflict and if someone wants one that bad it should be perfectly legal to give it to them. The white lady in this situation should have been well within her rights to beat the brakes off of the mother and if the daughter gets physically involved she should earn the right to a proper ass beating as well.

I'm tired of people acting like this and expecting to find sympathy from the authorities. Don't block my path, don't attempt to intimidate me, don't step in front of or behind my vehicle to prevent me from going about my business and there won't be anything worth recording. Run your mouth all you want, I have zero concern for the opinions of most people, especially of this ilk.

 

[phylodog]

I would have no problem arresting that woman with Criminal Confinement.



At what point did she reasonably fear for her life? She was in her car, and got back out to confront the instigators. Keep the gun in your lap, stay in the car. By exiting the car, she effectively gave up the ability to claim self defense. You can't claim self defense if you escalate a situation. Just drive away.

The adult was committing criminal confinement as soon as the video started. The occupants attempted to do the right thing and leave and the adult engaged in criminal confinement a second time trying to block their vehicle. Deadly force was not used or justified but I have zero problems with the handgun being pulled in an attempt to escape from the heathens.

I would also argue that from watching the video the white lady was attempting to deescalate the situation by leaving, she was prevented twice. The white lady exited her vehicle (not a bad tactical decision, cars are **** poor at stopping bullets) and pointed her pistol in an attempt to gain the space needed to leave the area. She screamed for the offenders to back up numerous times, once they did the white lady lowered her pistol, got back into the vehicle and left, further evidence that all the white lady wanted to do was deescalate the situation by leaving. I do not find her actions to be an unreasnable use of force and therefore she did not violate IC 35-47-4-3.

I rest my case

 

[BugI02]

Has anyone seen a longer video with the beginning of this confrontation, and if so could you post a link. There is a lot of missing info about the beginning of this in the OP's video because it's already at full bore when that starts

 

[MCgrease08]

This is why one should carry a purpose built tool that falls somewhere between a stern look and a firearm.

A nice hose down with OC spray would probably have been a better option than pulling a gun.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And all this bull**** started because the white woman accidentally "bumped into" the daughter of the black woman while going in or exiting the restaurant. No sympathy forthcoming from me for the alleged "victims". They provoked it, they escalated it, they asked for it and hoped for it.

 

[Jaybird1980]

This is why one should carry a purpose built tool that falls somewhere between a stern look and a firearm.

A nice hose down with OC spray would probably have been a better option than pulling a gun.

This also seems reasonable to me, but I would think you could still end up with assault charges if it went in front of a left leaning prosecutor.

My opinion is still to remain in vehicle and leave. I do agree with phylodog that an ass whooping was definitely earned, but you would be putting yourself at risk unnecessarily.

 

[CPT Nervous]

The adult was committing criminal confinement as soon as the video started. The occupants attempted to do the right thing and leave and the adult engaged in criminal confinement a second time trying to block their vehicle. Deadly force was not used or justified but I have zero problems with the handgun being pulled in an attempt to escape from the heathens.

I would also argue that from watching the video the white lady was attempting to deescalate the situation by leaving, she was prevented twice. The white lady exited her vehicle (not a bad tactical decision, cars are **** poor at stopping bullets) and pointed her pistol in an attempt to gain the space needed to leave the area. She screamed for the offenders to back up numerous times, once they did the white lady lowered her pistol, got back into the vehicle and left, further evidence that all the white lady wanted to do was deescalate the situation by leaving. I do not find her actions to be an unreasnable use of force and therefore she did not violate IC 35-47-4-3.

I rest my case

I can see that. I guess the way I was looking at it was it would have been better to push them out of the way with the car than get out and confront them again. I agree, all she was trying to do the whole time was deescalate, but she introduced a firearm into the situation that I don't feel was needed. She is pregnant, that will definitely help her cause, and the aggressors were most definitely, aggressive. I do not believe, however, that the actions of the aggressors would have placed either of the victims in fear of their lives. Drawing the gun escalated the encounter, and seeing what we've seen so far from these miscreants, I'm surprised they didn't put her in a situation where she was forced to shoot one or both of them.

If you're already in the car, you should stay in the car. If you think drawing the gun was justified (I'm still not 100% on board with that) then backing up and hitting them with the car is justified. Chances are, she's going to get out of the way. Either way, getting out of the car to confront her with a gun put herself in more danger than staying in the car, and it would have been a messy self defense case had she actually had to fire it.

I do hope she is acquitted or the charges are dropped. I don't think she should be punished for trying to protect herself, I just think she made the wrong decision in drawing the gun. I wasn't there, so I'm just going off what I saw. Can't change what happened, but talking about it may help someone else in the future.

 

[Tombs]

This is why one should carry a purpose built tool that falls somewhere between a stern look and a firearm.

A nice hose down with OC spray would probably have been a better option than pulling a gun.

Less lethal and non lethal tools are often more trouble than they're worth for non-LEO.

Your options for using them are about the same as your options for using a firearm.

At what point did she reasonably fear for her life? She was in her car, and got back out to confront the instigators. Keep the gun in your lap, stay in the car. By exiting the car, she effectively gave up the ability to claim self defense. You can't claim self defense if you escalate a situation. Just drive away.

They were clearly looking for a reaction, but nothing they did would have placed the victims here in fear for their lives, nor did they try to enter their car. Castle Doctrine doesn't apply here. As much as it pains me to see someone charged with a crime for doing what she believed was right, a crime she did indeed commit. And in the end, the idiots who started this altercation have won, and that's the biggest tragedy of this story.

Watch the video again and look at her breathing. She was absolutely in fear for her life.
She also did not escalate the situation, the situation was continuing to escalate until she pulled a firearm, at which point the situation started to de-escalate.

You're free to tell me how she could have left without breaking the law, if you wish to. Which is why it is unreasonable to charge her with a crime, there was no alternative.
As far as I'm aware, you aren't allowed to unlawfully detain someone.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I also have a question for CPT or any other officers, since you could possibly be dealing with a situation like this ( or have already)

Is it worth it for the people in the vehicle to continue on to a safe place, then call the police, or is that just waisting your time?

I think it definitely behooves you to call the police*. Call 911, and stay on the line with the dispatcher while you leave. Tell them what you are doing and where you are going. If you leave and don't call the police, that may come back to bite you. If you call the police and stay, you increase the chance of being attacked. I think calling 911 and getting the hell out of there is best practice.



*Police not available in all areas. Please talk to your local politicians to see if police services are available. Police response is not advised in all circumstances. Be aware that calling the police on minorities breaking the law may be construed as racist.

 

[phylodog]

I don't know how the laws work in MI but in IN the justification for the use of deadly force is:

(1) is justified in using deadly force;  and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.  No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

I'm no doctor but I believe a pregnant (and showing) woman would absolutely fear for the safety of her child in this situation. Here in IN she doesn't necessarily have to be fearful of being killed.

 

[phylodog]

*Police not available in all areas. Please talk to your local politicians to see if police services are available. Police response is not advised in all circumstances. Be aware that calling the police on minorities breaking the law may be construed as racist.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Less lethal and non lethal tools are often more trouble than they're worth for non-LEO.

Your options for using them are about the same as your options for using a firearm.

Truth. And carrying less lethal tools may end up being used against you. "He had Mace, why did he have to shoot him!!!!" You know the drill.

Watch the video again and look at her breathing. She was absolutely in fear for her life.
She also did not escalate the situation, the situation was continuing to escalate until she pulled a firearm, at which point the situation started to de-escalate.

You're free to tell me how she could have left without breaking the law, if you wish to. Which is why it is unreasonable to charge her with a crime, there was no alternative.
As far as I'm aware, you aren't allowed to unlawfully detain someone.

I hope a jury sees that the same way if this goes to trial. I really hope it doesn't go to trial.

I wasn't there, and I'm not her, so I cannot say what she was feeling. I do think that she did what she felt was the best option. Personally, I would not get out of my vehicle to confront an aggressor. If they need to be shot, I can replace my windows. I'm not putting myself at greater risk by exposing myself to an aggressor. I'll wait for an on duty officer to show up and arrest the aggressors.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I don't know how the laws work in MI but in IN the justification for the use of deadly force is:

(1) is justified in using deadly force;  and

(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.  No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

I'm no doctor but I believe a pregnant (and showing) woman would absolutely fear for the safety of her child in this situation. Here in IN she doesn't necessarily have to be fearful of being killed.

I think MI is similar. Either way, Criminal Confinement is a forcible felony in my book. And I do believe that being pregnant will help her case.

 

[Wolfhound]

I would like to be on the jury if this goes to trial because there is no way I would vote to convict. Of course, being Detroit, I doubt many others on the jury would share my opinion. I expect the charges will get reduced to something much less serious unless they want to "make an example" out of them. I agree that the "victims" were being extremely confrontational to the point of being a complete and total arse.

All this over accidentally bumping into someone outside a business.

 

[Jaybird1980]

I think it definitely behooves you to call the police*. Call 911, and stay on the line with the dispatcher while you leave. Tell them what you are doing and where you are going. If you leave and don't call the police, that may come back to bite you. If you call the police and stay, you increase the chance of being attacked. I think calling 911 and getting the hell out of there is best practice.



*Police not available in all areas. Please talk to your local politicians to see if police services are available. Police response is not advised in all circumstances. Be aware that calling the police on minorities breaking the law may be construed as racist.

Thank you for the answer

I kinda was thinking that you would be told that it's not criminal confinement if you were able to leave.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Thank you for the answer

I kinda was thinking that you would be told that it's not criminal confinement if you were able to leave.

They were intentionally blocking them from leaving. Just because you were able to escape doesn't mean that no crime was committed. At least that's how I see it. There was a period of time where their movement was being restricted. It was caught on camera. It was recorded by the perpetrators. I think they should be charged and convicted based on what I saw.