another child killed while dad is cleaning his gun

[Snapdragon]

Must be common core math. 1=4

 

[femurphy77]

How unusual that the father believed it to be unloaded. I'll bet no one has ever said that before.

If only there one simple rule that would have prevented this thinking and made us all realize that all guns were always loaded. If only we knew what they rule was without causing a Code Red Butthurt on INGO.

While I place the responsibility for this tragedy squarely on the father, I SO wish gun designers would quit designing guns such that you have to pull the trigger in order to break them down for cleaning. I don't know who thought that was a good idea, but they were wrong.

This is no different than wishing they'd make cars that wouldn't crash into each other or bicycles that wouldn't throw riders off or any other long wish list item of things that get people dead. The simple truth is that people are stupid and **** up. It's idiots like this father that cause "accidents" every day! If he's so sure that "eet ain't lowded" (In my best KF voice) then point the damn thing at his own head and pull the ****ing trigger!!!

This isn't pointed at you DD but I have a phrase I use at work regularly; "you can't idiot proof anything because they are always improving the idiot"!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While I place the responsibility for this tragedy squarely on the father, I SO wish gun designers would quit designing guns such that you have to pull the trigger in order to break them down for cleaning. I don't know who thought that was a good idea, but they were wrong.

A magazine disconnect would save more lives/injuries than any other bit of existing technology on a handgun. But few people want them, and the reasoning against them isn't wrong.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think we can all agree that it is far more effective to be mad at Kirk Freeman for teaching us about gun safety rather than saving another life.

Don't try to grab victim status and be the Martyr of Safety. Nobody is mad. It's just your shtick is useless and your presentation sucks, and your posts in this thread are just more of that. If something isn't working...maybe it's not everybody hearing the message that's the problem.

 

[ATM]

You know what would have been helpful here--teaching the father that all guns are loaded.

Nonsense, that's just not helpful at all.

Teach him how to properly unload the gun he doesn't want ready for use, to keep his finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, and most importantly, to ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

These are the instructive and helpful risk mitigation steps which constitute safe gun handling and they were linked in the very first response in this thread: https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

The little schtick of being smarter than the Four Rules so we can tell everyone how cool we are isn't helping.

Most people are smart enough to point the gun in a safe direction ...even if they think it's unloaded.

Teach them it's uncool not to. Teach them it's unacceptable not to.

Teach them something of value.

 

[jsharmon7]

These things just shouldn’t be happening. Checking a gun to see if it’s loaded is easy. Pointing it in a safe direction is easy. Why is this happening??

I think we can all agree that it is far more effective to be mad at Kirk Freeman for teaching us about gun safety rather than saving another.

Are you genuinely this arrogant? I used to think the Frazier Crane-esque persona was just an attempt at humor.

 

[Floivanus]

Personally I go with “treat firearms like they were loaded until verified” but add that to “know your target and what’s behind it” and I chamber check everything, when I’m loading up, moving firearms or cleaning, and typically pull triggers when the muzzle is pointed at a floor.

Either version of the rules is valid to me; it doesn’t matter, point a gun willingly or negligently at someone or something it shouldn’t be pointed at and you’re asking for trouble. Legitimate instances of malfunctions have occurred (slamfiring SKS, remington 700 trigger issues, shotguns bouncing the sear) and had real world consequences. Personally the only issue I have with “all guns are loaded” is that it makes them impossible to clean or work on, I teach to treat them AS IF they are loaded until YOU verify and clear them yourself.

It wasn’t that long ago I was browsing at my LGS and somebody came in selling their semiauto, laid it on the counter and did the ole “eet ain’t low-ded” spiel, LGS owner removed the empty magazine, racked the slide and asked the customer if he wanted to keep the round that popped out on the floor. Common enough occurrence that he has a jar for such non-existent rounds

 

[jgressley2003]

I’m just amazed when I read stories like these. I always check to be sure that my firearms are unloaded like 3-4 times before I disassemble them. I have enough dumb/bad luck as it is and I certainly don’t want to make headlines because of negligence.

 

[GLOCKMAN23C]

This makes me sick. It doesn't matter if there is 1 rule or 100. It doesn't matter after the fact, the fact is that one error, one mistake cost a girl her life.

Check and recheck that the chamber is empty and magazine is removed. Point the gun in a safe direction, no questions, if you question whether it is safe or not, it is not; then pull the trigger and disassemble. If no direction is 100% safe, get a sand trap.

 

[bgcatty]

6 year old killed while father is cleaning his gun. This is why people think we're all a bunch of reckless idiots.

https://www.wishtv.com/news/indiana...ental-shooting-in-southern-indiana/1302203924

What a stupid rectum of an idiot! I feel bad for his wife, other kids and family. Un fricking believable how preventable every one of these alleged accidents are if these fools would only follow the basic simple rules of gun safety. These incidents are nothing more than pure negligence, bordering on recklessness. My head explodes in anger with these tragedies!

 

[DoggyDaddy]

This is no different than wishing they'd make cars that wouldn't crash into each other or bicycles that wouldn't throw riders off or any other long wish list item of things that get people dead. The simple truth is that people are stupid and **** up. It's idiots like this father that cause "accidents" every day! If he's so sure that "eet ain't lowded" (In my best KF voice) then point the damn thing at his own head and pull the ****ing trigger!!!

This isn't pointed at you DD but I have a phrase I use at work regularly; "you can't idiot proof anything because they are always improving the idiot"!

Oh I agree. And the gun design comment was more of an aside. Fault still lies with the one handling the gun.

And I use that same saying about idiots at work too!

 

[Route 45]

Are you genuinely this arrogant? I used to think the Frazier Crane-esque persona was just an attempt at humor.

Frazier was actually entertaining and didn't have the same lines in every episode. I even saw him display humility a few times.
Not sure if he understood the workings of the Remington 870 firing mechanism, though.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

A magazine disconnect would save more lives/injuries than any other bit of existing technology on a handgun. But few people want them, and the reasoning against them isn't wrong.

Agreed. I can take or leave the mag disconnect, but I can see the argument for and against. But to purposely make you pull the trigger to disassemble a gun is just plain stupid. I can't think of a valid reason to do so other than the designer is an idiot that doesn't understand how guns work. And I don't care if his name is Gaston Glock. He's an idiot.

 

[deeno3432]

Heart breaks for this situation, I always clean and do any firearm related things in my basement at the base of my stairs so I can know if someone comes down there.

 

[femurphy77]

We always call out for gun safety after an event like this but I've actually been chastised at various LGS when after being handed a firearm I wish to look at the first thing I do is clear it. Almost every time the clerk that handed it to me asks why I felt it necessary to clear it when he already had. When we have that type of conversation going on between people that should know gun safety better than anybody it's unfortunately very easy to see why this continues to happen.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

. If no direction is 100% safe, get a sand trap.

Personally, I think that's the real takeaway. When I'm at home I always clear and clean in my office. I pull triggers with the muzzle pointed at a stack of old books. So far they are hole free, but I know I'm fallible and could screw it up one day. If I do, the worst that happens is...a hole in some old books. Well, probably some ringing in my ears. But mostly the books.

Doing it the same way every time, free from distraction, and following the same (safe) routine every time minimizes risks. Risks never hit 0%, but we can get real close.

 

[churchmouse]

We always call out for gun safety after an event like this but I've actually been chastised at various LGS when after being handed a firearm I wish to look at the first thing I do is clear it. Almost every time the clerk that handed it to me asks why I felt it necessary to clear it when he already had. When we have that type of conversation going on between people that should know gun safety better than anybody it's unfortunately very easy to see why this continues to happen.

I do not get this anymore as I do not enter a LGS that I do not actually know the owner and they know me. The last time I had that situation my response was....."Did you actually just say that to me"......The dumb look was priceless. Why would I skip any steps in my gun handling protocol at any time in any place. That was my follow up. I laid the gun down and walked out the door. Screw that self important Bull ****.

 

[LP1]

A magazine disconnect would save more lives/injuries than any other bit of existing technology on a handgun. But few people want them, and the reasoning against them isn't wrong.

Sadly, Cletus would simply pop in a mag and pull the trigger. And bang it goes.

Better to not design a gun so that the trigger must be pulled for disassembly.

Kinda surprised that nobody has sued Glock over this "feature".

 

[actaeon277]

We always call out for gun safety after an event like this but I've actually been chastised at various LGS when after being handed a firearm I wish to look at the first thing I do is clear it. Almost every time the clerk that handed it to me asks why I felt it necessary to clear it when he already had. When we have that type of conversation going on between people that should know gun safety better than anybody it's unfortunately very easy to see why this continues to happen.

I was riding in the back of a Navy Pick up truck, which was against regs, but I didn't know it.
(But, we were transporting bags of Classified Material to the shredder, and I had to ensure something didn't hop off the truck.)
Anyway..
At a stop sign, I saw the pickup driver look both ways. Looked RIGHT AT a van to the right.
Then the pickup driver accelerated, RIGHT INTO the van he just looked at.
Looking with your eyes, is NOT looking with your brain.

I use this example when teaching people to check the gun, EVEN WHEN THEY SEE SOMEONE ELSE CHECK.


I taught the son of an INGOer this.
At a Meet & Shoot, the proud parents came up and had the son tell me, that at a gun store, he was handed an "unloaded gun", which
HE THEN CHECKED AGAIN.
Yes, it was unloaded.
But, the store clerk questioned why he did it.
And the boy told him, CAUSE THAT'S HOW I WAS TAUGHT. I don't know if you were looking, or thinking about something else.

I was very proud of that kid.
It's very hard to make waves when you're a kid, surrounded by adults.

 

[GREEN607]

Since reading this thread, and the linked article..... I searched the subject, and read at least five more 'articles' on various newspaper and TV sites (some in Louisville). Every one says virtually the same thing, almost word-for-word. So, I'm guessing they all just printed what the ISP released to them as case info.

None of them even tell the fathers' age.

Now please don't accuse me of judgment, as this is not that, and I am NOT referring to just this case in Washington County, Indiana. Certainly this is a tragedy for everyone involved..... and I can't imagine the sorrow in the fathers' heart, having lost his little girl to any circumstances.

But I am wondering, since we've heard so many of these "accidental discharge while cleaning" tragedies lately..... how many of them were actually 'cleaning' the firearm??? I can't help but believe that some of these are simply mishandling of a loaded handgun by the owner/shooter. I wonder if the ISP report shows there were in fact cleaning materials/tools present when they arrived on scene. I wonder the same thing about other recently reported incidents, as well.