Are LTCHs ever checked @ the range?

[schafe]

Short answer.....Why yes!, yes they are.
Me, Mrs. schafe and chickenman were having a pleasant day at Atterbury yesterday, when a DNR officer in a brand new looking uniform, checked the LTCHs of those at the pistol lanes. We were prepared, of course, but it looked like one group near us was not. Did anybody else see that? The LTCH checking was brief and we were back shooting quickly. It was a fun day, and the 3 of us all shot well (by our standards) I never quite figured out what happened to that other group, though.

 

[Love the 1911]

I didn't think you needed a LTCH to shoot at the range as long as your gun is stored in the trunk of your car, unloaded and in a case. Good thing I'm not DNR.

 

[christman]

I didn't think you needed a LTCH to shoot at the range as long as your gun is stored in the trunk of your car, unloaded and in a case. Good thing I'm not DNR.

Sure do.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I didn't think you needed a LTCH to shoot at the range as long as your gun is stored in the trunk of your car, unloaded and in a case. Good thing I'm not DNR.

Not according to the Indiana Code.

But according to gun shop employees and message board typists, yes.

-J-

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The Indiana Code:

IC 35-47-2-2
Excepted persons
Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:
(1) marshals;
(2) sheriffs;
(3) the commissioner of the department of correction or persons authorized by him in writing to carry firearms;
(4) judicial officers;
(5) law enforcement officers;
(6) members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves while they are on duty;
(7) regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this state who are at or are going to or from their place of assembly or target practice;
(8) employees of the United States duly authorized to carry handguns;
(9) employees of express companies when engaged in company business;
(10) any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms or the agent or representative of any such person having in his possession, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of that business; or
(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another.

 

[eldirector]

I didn't think you needed a LTCH to shoot at the range as long as your gun is stored in the trunk of your car, unloaded and in a case. Good thing I'm not DNR.

Can't carry anywhere without a license to carry. Now, SHOOTING at a range doesn't necessarily need a license, though that is still debated as well. Several ranges rent handguns to non-licensed shooters. Didn't Atterbury rent handguns a while back? All you needed was an ID, if I recall.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Let's be specific for any lurkers, one needs a license to carry a HANDGUN, not a long gun.

We generally don't, we aren't police (well some of the guys at Eagle Creek are, generally we are not). We have been asked on a variety of occasions if we needed to see it. That's the rub. If they ask and we say no, but they have a handgun without a license, liability? Not sure, aiding in criminal activity? If they ask and we say yes, I don't believe that as a IndyParks employee I am entitled or empowered to ask for the permit. Sticky wicket... The tough situation is the folks that JUST came from the store or the show, fresh handgun in hand, no permit, asking us if they can shoot without permit. Generally, I ask them to not shoot, potential liability in my mind. One guy knew the law to a degree and asked me to tighten a grip screw, technically a "place of repair". I informed him I was not a gunsmith...

Ignorance can be bliss, just don't ask if the range doesn't ask? Not a good idea, just get the permit. But some folks have a handgun for home only defense, no permit... What a tricky thing!

 

[NIFT]

This Indiana law is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted. It took me quite a bit of effort to find the "definitive" answer from the Indiana Attorney General's office and the ISP.

ISP Lt. Jerry Berkey is the designated person (from Captain Ruben Marte') in charge of LTCH permits in Indiana. Here is his position on item 11 in IC 35-47-2-2:

(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

In (11), you would take the phrase “any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper” and then apply it to each of the three phrases that follows. So to interpret the final exemption, you could read “any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper in moving from one dwelling or business to another.” Now it should become clearer that statute is talking about actually changing residences or business locations as opposed to randomly moving the weapon from one residence or business to another. If it meant other than that, the statute would read, “moving the handgun from…”, which it does not. To interpret it too freely would negate the need for a permit to carry as long as the weapon was unloaded and in a secure wrapper. Why would there be a hunting and target permit, if you could transport the weapon unloaded to a range (which is a business)? The meaning is clear, you need a permit with the exception of these very limited instances.


Lt. Jerry A. Berkey
Indiana State Police
Records Division, Rm 302
100 N. Senate Avenue--IGCN
Indianapolis, IN 46204
317-232-8263
MW2498

Translation:
Without the permit, you may transport a handgun from the dealer where purchased to your dwelling, or from the dealer where purchased to your fixed place of business, or from your dwelling or fixed place of business to a place of repair and back, or from the current dwelling to a new dwelling, or from a current fixed place of business to a new fixed place of business.

It does not allow moving the handgun back and forth from dwelling to fixed place of business. It does not even allow transporting the handgun back to the dealer to return it or sell it or trade it.

However, attorney Bryan Ciyou, in his latest edition of "Indiana Firearm Reference Manual" does raise the question of what constitutes a "dwelling."

Very few LEOs (including ISP troopers) know this law, fewer the correct interpretation of this law, and even fewer enforce it. Even Cpt. Marte' did not reference even one instance of such enforcement. Range masters at DNR ranges have told me it is not their job to enforce Indiana laws; so, they don't check for LTCH permits.

There are approximately 230,000 LTCH holders in Indiana out of a population of about 7 million, but there are far more handgun owners in Indiana than 230,000, if national averages are used.

Bottom line:
It is best (and legally required) to have the carry permit, but the likelihood of being cited for not having one while shooting at a range is very close to zero.

 

[buzz815]

Short answer.....Why yes!, yes they are.
Me, Mrs. schafe and chickenman were having a pleasant day at Atterbury yesterday, when a DNR officer in a brand new looking uniform, checked the LTCHs of those at the pistol lanes. We were prepared, of course, but it looked like one group near us was not. Did anybody else see that? The LTCH checking was brief and we were back shooting quickly. It was a fun day, and the 3 of us all shot well (by our standards) I never quite figured out what happened to that other group, though.

LTCHs were checked and firearms were confiscated if you couldn't produce one for the CO.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Bottom line:
It is best (and legally required) to have the carry permit, but the likelihood of being cited for not having one while shooting at a range is very close to zero.

Well, it was, until we all started playing internet lawyers and attracted a lot of LE and DNR attention on our board. The number of reports of DNR CO's checking licenses @dnr properties has skyrocketed since we began this line of discussion over a year ago.

 

[NIFT]

LTCHs were checked and firearms were confiscated if you couldn't produce one for the CO.

Hmmm, sounds like things may be changing--at some DNR ranges. The folks at Roush Lake don't check for LTCHs, and I was there on Saturday.

Yup. Best to have the permit!!

 

[eldirector]

LTCHs were checked and firearms were confiscated if you couldn't produce one for the CO.

Under what authority are they confiscating guns? If they are citing someone for "carrying without a license", it is a Class A Misdemeanor. Shouldn't you be arrested for that, or is it just a "ticket" like a traffic stop? If I scan through the other class A's, they all seem like something you would go to jail for.

Almost sounds like the CO's are either making up their own law, or making up their own punishment.

Of course, I could be wrong....

 

[printcraft]

Well, it was, until we all started playing internet lawyers and attracted a lot of LE and DNR attention on our board. The number of reports of DNR CO's checking licenses @dnr properties has skyrocketed since we began this line of discussion over a year ago.

So what you are saying is that there were a lot of misinformed DNR and LE
out there believing that you did not need a license to go to the range
and now they are aware and are looking to get those people who may be in violation?

 

[schafe]

LTCHs were checked and firearms were confiscated if you couldn't produce one for the CO.

Thanks for the info, Buzz. I kinda figured that was what was going on. Were there any arrests, that you know of ?

 

[brotherbill3]

Hmmm, sounds like things may be changing--at some DNR ranges. The folks at Roush Lake don't check for LTCHs, and I was there on Saturday.

Yup. Best to have the permit!!

SO YOU WERE PART OF THE TROUBLE MAKERS

I was there Sunday and the Range master gave us this big lecture about "not putting up w/ today", because yesterday (Saturday) was crazy day.

Just Kidding ... hope you had a good day.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

Almost sounds like the CO's are either making up their own law, or making up their own punishment.

snip

Or enhancing their personal collections, or getting some Christmas "shopping" done.

 

[kludge]

Translation:
Without the permit, you may transport a handgun from the dealer where purchased to your dwelling, or from the dealer where purchased to your fixed place of business, or from your dwelling or fixed place of business to a place of repair and back, or from the current dwelling to a new dwelling, or from a current fixed place of business to a new fixed place of business.

It does not allow moving the handgun back and forth from dwelling to fixed place of business. It does not even allow transporting the handgun back to the dealer to return it or sell it or trade it.

That's exactly how I read it. I'm glad you got a written answer, I got the run around from the AG and ISP a few years ago on a related question.

 

[NIFT]

SO YOU WERE PART OF THE TROUBLE MAKERS

I was there Sunday and the Range master gave us this big lecture about "not putting up w/ today", because yesterday (Saturday) was crazy day.

Just Kidding ... hope you had a good day.

Yeah, Fred was in a particularly "crusty" mood, Saturday, and the very first thing he said to me was, "Just don't start it!" So, I cut him a little slack--very little!

I love Fred to death, but I think he was a little overwhelmed on a busy day and some, ahem, "creative" gun handling by a small number of patrons.

 

[chewylax8]

Sorry if this is a thread hijack - mods, feel free to delete if it is...

But I was wondering if I went to the range with a handgun and have my LTCH...but bring my friends who don't have their LTCH, can they still shoot the handgun?

 

[NIFT]

Sorry if this is a thread hijack - mods, feel free to delete if it is...

But I was wondering if I went to the range with a handgun and have my LTCH...but bring my friends who don't have their LTCH, can they still shoot the handgun?

Without being able to quote "chapter and verse" of Indiana Code, I believe the answer is "yes."

However, in a different scenario, say your friends also brought handguns, those friends do not have carry permits, and you claim all the handguns are yours, you may put yourself in a bit of a pickle!