Bearcats are reproducing.

[Kirk Freeman]

An idea, scrap them!

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england...er&ns_mchannel=social&ocid=socialflow_twitter

 

[phylodog]

Just think of all the money from scrap that could be used to improve the lives of criminals participating in our hugely successful “rehabilitative” corrections system. Feather pillows, five star dining accommodations, Olympic level workout facilities, free college education, cabr and internet. I’m just gushing with liberal feel goods just thinking about it.

 

[natdscott]

I think there are some very valid points on both sides of this thread. Provided it stays somewhat civil, maybe the debate can continue.

Being that I have some pretty good friends with high levels of tactical experience, I almost hesitated to post what I did. But then I realized that I'd have the same conversation in-person, and they wouldn't mind, because my main question was not one of any individual officer, team, department, or municipality.

Do I think Terre Haute could spend their money in a more constructive manner? Perhaps, yes. That being said, I don't live there, I don't know how bad the meth effect is getting, I don't drive around in the thing, and I don't pay for it, so at the end of the day, I reckon it's not. my. f^#@ing business.

That being said, philosophically and historically, I'd still love to hear various answers to my chicken/egg question. I'm a long, long way from an expert in any of it.

As far back as Dillinger et al., Police forces have had issue with being under gunned, and there were also examples of 'gangsters' armoring their door panels and so forth. This of course led to LE choosing larger heavier weapons, and issuing magazine-fed rifles. While something like the .35 Remington is not considered particularly powerful in the modern day, a Remington Model 8 with 10 to 20 rounds in the magazine may as well have been an anti-aircraft weapon compared to the standard issue revolvers and shotguns of the time.

I would TEND to think that the basis of the weaponry struggle lies with criminals continuing to choose heavier weaponry than that normally issued to your beat cop, and they do indeed have a tragic history of getting that accomplished.

On the other side of the street, it has always been well-understood that any of the various LE "Task Forces" are unlikely to be using conventional weapons and armor, and that they will be coming AFTER your a@# if you go after their buddies on the street... After all, "Special" is right in the name.

Anybody with experience in these matters:

Do you think, within a decade or two, and with presumed continued drug influence on the criminal scene, Police will begin seeing heavier weaponry used against them regularly?


-Nate

 

[phylodog]

Do you think, within a decade or two, and with presumed continued drug influence on the criminal scene, Police will begin seeing heavier weaponry used against them regularly?


-Nate

I don't think there will be a significant increase from the typical criminal element. I think the possibility of seeing increases in terrorist activities is very possible and I don't think they'll show up light handed. Deputy Jason Baker was murdered with a 7.62x39 in 2001 as was Officer Jake Laird three years later in Indianapolis, unless my memory isn't holding up we didn't lose another officer to that type of weapon until Officer Perry Renn was murdered in 2014. The number of weapons chambered in that caliber that I've seen confiscated from convicted felons in that same time frame was impressive.

My issue is that while I've never been assaulted, mugged or robbed while off duty I still choose to carry a gun just in case. I think that makes perfect sense and I'm certain the vast majority of the membership here does as well. Why can that not apply to police officers and agencies? Better to have it and not need it is a pretty common axiom heard within the firearms community, why do some insist that other people, based on their chosen profession, must wait until tragedy strikes to provide overwhelming evidence that something is needed before accepting it? What evidence are some looking for to justify purchasing protection for officers? I would argue that only looking at incidents where shots have been fired is being willfully ignorant of reality. Does TH "need" a Bearcat? I don't have a clue, like you I don't live there. Could they justify the need based on the number of criminals they encounter who are armed with high power weaponry? I would hope so if they're planning to purchase one and have no problem with people asking those questions provided they are reasonable in their expectations.

 

[phylodog]

I'm out of the game. I made it just shy of 20yrs but my brother is still on. If someone is going to ask him to show up and risk his life protecting theirs I don't think it is unreasonable to provide him with the means of doing so as safely as possible. Maybe his life isn't worth $250k to most but it is to me and my nephews, his wife and my parents.

 

[terrehautian]

Something I just remembered.

Not only do do they have this

but they also have an old armored brinks truck the school Corp donated. Unless one is going away, the tax dollars are better served elsewhere or buying more new police cruisers that are not incapacitated in deep snow like the chargers or crown Vic’s.

 

[DRob]

I simply cannot grasp the idea that police officers shouldn't have every advantage available whether it be equipment, training, technology, you name it.

 

[terrehautian]

So two armored vehicles, multiple humvees aren’t enough? Crime isn’t that bad here. I’m actually not against the idea of the bearcat if needed, I’m more against tax dollars going for it for something not exactly needed right now. The city could use more awd Ford Taurus cruisers now (they recently bought ten of them)more then a bearcat. Last time we had a big snow, they had to use the humvees to patrol (and the cool old blazers from the military). The national guard was also helping patrol in both city and the county. Then the county upgraded their cruisers to awd explorers.

 

[HoughMade]

So two armored vehicles, multiple humvees aren’t enough? Crime isn’t that bad here...

True story. About a year or so ago, I was sitting in the parking lot at a Terre Haute hospital very early in the morning, waiting for the cardiologist I was supposed to meet with to arrive (work related), when I heard a story on the local radio about a cat and dog getting into a fight, the cat getting the better of the dog and the cat's owner claiming that his cat had acted in self-defense.

That told me all I needed to know about TH.

 

[natdscott]

So two armored vehicles, multiple humvees aren’t enough? Crime isn’t that bad here. I’m actually not against the idea of the bearcat if needed, I’m more against tax dollars going for it for something not exactly needed right now.

Well, I get that, but I will point out what might be obnoxiously obvious, but bears saying anyway:

To get a dead LEO, it only requires ONE guy, with ONE round in the gun.

So maybe if YOU were the Officer tasked with approaching a situation with a KNOWN shooter or shooters, or a KNOWN violent felon in their meth lab trailer, or any other of a thousand high risk scenarios...

...you'd feel differently about the usefulness of a light APC.


I think it also bears saying that even in a city the size of Chicago--probably over 2.7 million people as we speak--the SWAT team is only 70 individuals.

Seventy men and women tasked with pulling security at every major event, serving nearly every high-risk warrant, and responding to every nasty emergent situation 24 hours a day, every day of the year. I almost guarantee you you'd be surprised to know the numbers in your State's Capital.


--Think about the probability of one of those guys catching a round over their time on the teams.

--Think about what it would mean to you as a family member for your brother/uncle/son to be issued a life-saving piece of equipment.

--Think about what it would mean if your family member took a round in the face because they were not issued that equipment.




It's not exactly abstractions we're discussing here, which is entirely more than I can say for municipal budgets.

-Nate