Blame the shooter, not the gear

[Shay]

But with that said, I have never accepted the design of the Serpa holster. It relies on the trigger finger to do something other than being off the trigger and out of the trigger guard.

Note: Explicit Language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=feedu

My take aways:

1. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on the target and have made the decision to shoot. Cutting corners for speed will eventually lead to mistakes and negligence.

2. Have a medical trauma kit in all your range bags and your vehicle. Shooting ranges are typically in remote locations. If you have to provide self aid while waiting for emergency responders, it might be a while. Have medical gear and the knowledge to use it. The life you save may be your own.

3. Carry the same gun in the same holster every day. I've never understood why guys want to try to carry 3 different guns in 8 different kinds of holsters. Most of us don't practice enough as it is. Why add needless variations to the mix and dilute your practice and training time by switching guns all the time. For me it's a Glock 19.

4. Pistols in holster often point at body parts. This is brought up in the context of appendix carry all the time, but it's true of most IWB and OWB setups as well. I was dismissed in another thread for posting this very thing, but it doesn't make it any less true. Be aware that your gun in a holster is probably going to point at your leg or foot or hip or arse at some point. See point 1 for help in avoiding issues.

5. You are not as good as you think you are. Be humble. Focus. Think.

 

[shooter521]

Great video and insights. Thanks for posting that, Shay.

 

[Zero_ek]

Thanks for posting that. And glad you are alright. Makes me keep my mind on the gun safety.

 

[Shay]

Thanks for posting that. And glad you are alright. Makes me keep my mind on the gun safety.

This isn't me.

I posted it because I think some of his conclusions in the video are wrong and to add commentary that I think can improve people's chances of not repeating his mistakes.

 

[cedartop]

Good post Shay. You are right, the shooter is to blame, but that Serpa design is definitely a contributing factor. This strengthens my opinion that we are correct in STRONGLY discouraging people from using these holsters in our classes.

All of your five points are valid. Number 5 is why I don't make fun of this buffoon in the video. I have seen this happen to too many so called "professionals" for me to make fun of anyone it happens to.

 

[Mudcat]

I do not like the Serpa holster either. I blame their popularity on the fact that they are in every mom and pop gun shop and tout the retention as a safety device. I don't buy it, in fact avoid it.

Your take aways are spot on too! Thanks!

 

[x10]

I don't know how the serpa holster came into this thread, the AD was using a 511 thumbdrive that caused the bad habit

He put his finger on the trigger before the gun was on target.

Serpa bashing has nothing to do with someone pulling the trigger.

I'll continue to use and train and compete with my serpa and an M&P

what really should be recognized is what I think is that many people try to run with a 1911 that don't get to train with them enough,
As stated, if your going to carry, carry one way and only one way, Many of us are equipment whores and like to spend time shooting other firearms Which is as it should be but should only carry one way.

A friend uses the term out of process,

pick your process and only do that process.

 

[Vince49]

?

I carry in a Blackhawk CQC serpa everyday. I fail to see how you could accidentally wind up with your finger on the trigger with this holster. A normal draw results in my finger being extended along the right side of the slide well away from the trigger. In order for my finger to wind up inside the trigger guard I would have to place it there after the pistol had cleared the holster. If it happens while re-holstering it would mean that my finger was on the trigger while returning the gun to the holster, which will get you shot with any rig.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I don't know how the serpa holster came into this thread, the AD was using a 511 thumbdrive that caused the bad habit

At the 1:30 mark he specifically stated that earlier in the day he was practicing with 5.11 thumbdrive holster and the ND resulted while using the Serpa.

The motion to disengage the the 5.11 using the Serpa resulted in the safety being disengaged, and the motion to disengage the firearm from the Serpa causes you to put continued pressure on the unlock mech as you withdraw it from the holster causing a reactionary continued pressing of the index finger into the trigger as you withdraw.

It was this reason alone that when I had my old Taurus 1911 that came with a Serpa that I ditched it.

I wanted no part of a holster that as part of the drawing process forces your finger to press in a fashion that can fire the weapon on withdraw.

There's enough going on as it is, and that release is in a horrible position.

Now if it was more towards the slide that put your finger in the right position along the frame as you withdrew, then this would be a different discussion.

 

[96firephoenix]

that could have ended up a lot worse for the guy in the video. he got really lucky, but the OP has a great point about sticking to one holster type. I've looked at the type of holster that the ND occurred out of, and I didn't like it for the reasons stated by indybeerman.

 

[Shay]

Oops, I did miss the potty mouth warning.

 

[rbrthenderson]

I think it's a good learning experience for everybody. I'm not a big fan of active retention holsters but this is not the fault of the holster at all. He was not practicing the four rules.

I agree that you should be carrying in one method. If I need to use the gun, I don't want my body reacting and attempting to draw from the wrong location with the wrong gun. Because during an attack, it will be a muscle memory reaction and I will go to the same place every time.

 

[jon159753]

That is my new self defense tactic.
Bad guy: "Give me all your money."
me: "I just f***ing shot myself!"
then the bad guy should run away.

 

[Vince49]

Let me catch my breath!

That is my new self defense tactic.
Bad guy: "Give me all your money."
me: "I just f***ing shot myself!"
then the bad guy should run away.

Actually he will probably still be on the ground incapacitated with laughter when help arrives. I know I would be!

 

[Shay]

I think it's a good learning experience for everybody. I'm not a big fan of active retention holsters but this is not the fault of the holster at all. He was not practicing the four rules.

He got on the trigger quick because he wanted to shoot quick. His holster magnified the error because it requires the trigger finger to apply pressure to unlock the pistol.

People love Serpa holsters. That's fine and that's their choice. But there are risks associated with the design.

Most gun owners can recite the 4 rules, but very few actually understand them or can consistently apply them when they have a gun in their hands.

Everybody SAYS they follow the 4 safety rules, but most shooters don't. Honestly, they really don't. They fail to handle guns purposefully and they often make excuses for the bad gun handling they get called on.

 

[Fargo]

The motion to disengage the the 5.11 using the Serpa resulted in the safety being disengaged, and the motion to disengage the firearm from the Serpa causes you to put continued pressure on the unlock mech as you withdraw it from the holster causing a reactionary continued pressing of the index finger into the trigger as you withdraw.

But that's the thing, I just went and drew a dozen times out of my Serpa with my M&P cleared. Pushing as hard as I can as the gun comes out, my finger still ends up nowhere near the trigger; it ends up high on the frame up onto the slide.

I'm not moving it at all as the gun comes out, that is simply where it ends up. In order to get my finger on the trigger as the gun comes out, I have to deliberately move it off the button and down.

I also have practice drawn and drawn on the range with that rig into the 1000's of times and I have never had accidental touch of the trigger. If I had, I wouldn't be using it anymore.

Maybe other makes of guns line the trigger and the button up on a Serpa but the M&P 45 certainly does not.

Best,

Joe

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Carry the same gun in the same holster every day. I've never understood why guys want to try to carry 3 different guns in 8 different kinds of holsters. Most of us don't practice enough as it is.

Could you have every member of INGO write that on a chalkboard a 100 times or so?

If it's Thursday, it's a Glock. Find a gun, buy multiple copies, carry it the same way so you don't loop rounds through something soft and fleshy.

Oh, and don't be a ninja.

Most gun owners can recite the 4 rules, but very few actually understand them or can consistently apply them when they have a gun in their hands.

Yup, they want to be a ninja with blinding speed (and goofy cowboy hats) and thus the Four Rules do not apply or think the rules don't apply if there is a malfunction or they are coon fingering them in the parking lot.

The gun only has one job. Wouldn't it be nice if more shooters understood what that job was.

 

[IndyBeerman]

snip... Find a gun, buy multiple copies, carry it the same way so you don't loop rounds through something soft and fleshy. ...snip

This why I love my Taurus 809 and bought a Taurus 845, I'm soon planning on getting the 840 with the .22 conversion added to it to complete the 800 series.

All three guns have the same exact grip and controls, nothing different to try and remember.


BTW, next time I'm in downtown Lafayette Kirk and you see a Miller Lite or Coors Light beer truck and don't ask if IndyBeerman is there, you owe me a box of .45's (been there the last 2 Thursdays).

 

[IndyBeerman]

But that's the thing, I just went and drew a dozen times out of my Serpa with my M&P cleared. Pushing as hard as I can as the gun comes out, my finger still ends up nowhere near the trigger; it ends up high on the frame up onto the slide.

I'm not moving it at all as the gun comes out, that is simply where it ends up. In order to get my finger on the trigger as the gun comes out, I have to deliberately move it off the button and down.

I also have practice drawn and drawn on the range with that rig into the 1000's of times and I have never had accidental touch of the trigger. If I had, I wouldn't be using it anymore.

Maybe other makes of guns line the trigger and the button up on a Serpa but the M&P 45 certainly does not.

Best,

Joe

This above, the Serpa I had put my finger in direct line with the trigger, and I bet more than a dollar that it does for others also.

 

[Shay]

Guys, stress is also a factor. Testing a Serpa in your living room with an unloaded pistol or blue gun is a low stress event. When people get jacked up and try to go fast (in competition, class or defense) the dynamic changes and the thing you did 1000 times slow can have very different outcomes.

Just be aware of what the design is asking your body to do. Nobody plans on shooting themselves. I doubt Tex thought this would happen to him or he probably wouldn't have owned the thing, right?