Blame the shooter, not the gear

[o Mr Cadillac o]

Wow!! Thanks for posting.

 

[Vince49]

Roll how you must.

BTW I'm a mere novice, but Shay and FullAuto, they have experience unlike anything I will or others will ever have.[/QUOTE]

I do not doubt their experience or question their credentials, but speaking for myself and I am sure several others on here, they are probably not the only ones to have undergone extensive training and in at least my case live fire coming from the WRONG direction. I survived and so did they. Lesson: Training is good. Thinking and planning is good. No plan or even,"muscle memory", learned through extensive practice will be there when the first shot comes you way. Nor will you react exactly the same way every time if you have the great misfortune to be involved in several firefights in your lifetime.
I know. So use what works for YOU, equipment and training, and hope for the best if ever the need arises. There is however no universal formula or answer to what is acceptable. When as they say the,"smoke and the dust clears", you are either still here to participate in life..........or you are not.

 

[Hanu]

This is why I joined this forum: I knew I could learn from other's experience. The holster I bought for my new S&W .38 special is very tight and I have trouble drawing it. I thought I'd try a holster my dad suggested (hey, he's made it to 82; he must know something ;0 ) and use it when I'm biking and would probably only have one hand available. Thought I'd use the one I have for other occassions. Now I think I'll just consider the one I have a bad purchase and try others until I find the one that works best for me.

Thanks for posting this, Shay.

 

[Shay]

Aside from suicide, nobody plans to shoot themselves. And yet somehow it happens a fair amount. Now we have a case study on video.

Beyond the holster debate, I hope this video helps some viewers dissect what they do when handling guns and how they practice. AND I want people to think about their gear choices.

Despite the assertions to the contrary, gear was a factor in this self-inflicted gunshot. It was not the only factor, but it played a part.

 

[Tombs]

The clear issue is due to training with 2 different and contradicting pieces of gear.

One uses your trigger finger, one uses your thumb. Combining the 2 with a 1911 probably won't end well. I'd say the thumb drive holster is a bad idea in general, while the finger system has always released the gun with my finger on the slide, and won't physically release if I try to put it on the trigger. You can also train to not use the pad of your finger on the release button, but to use the boney joint to depress it, forcing you to keep your finger straight. While trying to draw fast from other holsters, the possibility of ending up with your finger on the trigger feels more realistic to me. The issue here that people are missing is that the thumb drive holster caused him to dump the safety, and the lack of the retention button meant his finger could have been in the wrong place while he was drawing.

In ANY case, people need to learn to slow down. Not just during training but also during a real life situation. You need to train your self to create a focused train of thought and make your motions intentional instead of by muscle memory, when it comes to a safe but quick draw. This isn't the old west, you aren't fanning a revolver in a duel. Before you touch your gun your thought process needs to chill out, and you need to calculate your motions. Yes it is possible to do under stress, but something that will require practice. The best "gunfighters" of the old west did the same thing.

Can't get rattled or try to show off, that's really all it is. While some will probably come up with 100 reasons why it's impossible to keep your cool, never the less it's an important skill to develop and is more likely to save your life than training muscle memory and instinct. Smooth and deliberate is always faster.

 

[Coach]

This ND was not the gears fault. It was the shooter. A shooter or warrior or whomever should be able to pick up a gun and get good hits in self-defense range. If you cannot use this gun or that holster or what have you then you really are not armed or trained.

Ignore the Four rules of gun safety and bad things will happen. Pay heed to them always and you will be fine. Fairly simple.

 

[mikerccie]

I carry in a Blackhawk CQC serpa everyday. I fail to see how you could accidentally wind up with your finger on the trigger with this holster. A normal draw results in my finger being extended along the right side of the slide well away from the trigger. In order for my finger to wind up inside the trigger guard I would have to place it there after the pistol had cleared the holster. If it happens while re-holstering it would mean that my finger was on the trigger while returning the gun to the holster, which will get you shot with any rig.

If I heard the guy in the video correctly he said he tried to pull the pistol but forgot to engage the release, when he hit the release the second time it worked and that's when his finger curled into the trigger guard.

 

[MilitaryArms]

So you and everyone else here have duplicated the "stress factor" and had inadvertent trigger contact? Or are you just buying the Suarez byline because it sounds good and seems to make sense?

Joe

You may not believe it, but this isn't the first time this has happened. However, this is one of the few videos that exist showing the issue actually taking place though. Why do you think various training organizations ban the SERPA or discourage its use?

I can tell you why, because as I've come to learn this scenario has played out too many times to be coincidence. Such unintentional discharges have happened to guys with more training than Mr. Grebner.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others. It hasn't happened to me either (I've owned SERPA's for years) but I also can't deny the mounting evidence the design is flawed and a potential a safety liability, especially when compared to other designs such as the Safariland 6300 series.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Despite the assertions to the contrary, gear was a factor in this self-inflicted gunshot. It was not the only factor, but it played a part.

Why people can't accept this simple fact is a bit concerning. Those who insist it's all the operator are just as dangerous potentially as the person that blames just the gear.

People need to be a little more receptive to the experiences of others otherwise they too run the risk of falling into the same trap. Everyone is quick to blame the shooter completely and turn a blind eye to other contributing factors. Everyone wants to pretend they're immune to such mishaps because their gear is the best on the market (brand loyalty) and they're the most experienced person with firearms they know.

There are good and bad designs for gear and yes, this can contribute to mishaps.

 

[Coach]

A bad gear design can be overcome by good gun handling. In this case a straight finger prevents the shot. Not disengaging the safety in the holster. These things are the shooters fault. The gear may be flawed or maybe not. Lots of people doing the same thing does not necessarily make it the gear.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I'm not saying it's the gears fault. I'm saying it's a mixture of inexperience and a poor design.

The fact more experienced shooters than Mr. Grebner have had similar discharges tells me the holster is in fact a contributing factor.

Lots of people doing it does indicate a design flaw in that one product is more likely to be involved in a mishap than another. Why you can't accept this is a bit perplexing.

 

[MilitaryArms]

This issue has been well documented for many years, here's a discussion thread that details the exact situation Mr. Grebner experienced dating back to 2005:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=164512

Back in 2007 Blackhawk! had a recall on the SERPA due to another issue where the "high wall" design caused unintentional discharges when attempting to seat a pistol in the holster.

Blackhawk Products Group is announcing a safety recall that applies to the "High Wall" versions of Blackhawk's Carbon Fiber SERPA Holsters and Blackhawk Sportster Holsters intended to fit only Glock Models 20 and 21 and the Smith & Wesson M&P in any caliber or configuration that are marked: "Glock 20/21"; "Glock 20/21 S&W M&P; or "Glock 20/21 S&W M&P .45". These holsters also have the Component Part Number C1215, C1215-L, C1215-S, or C1215-L-S molded into the bottom of the rear wall of the holster body.

As a result of a single incident, it has been determined that employing certain movements when attempting to place the Smith and Wesson M&P Pistol (in any caliber or configuration) into these "High Wall" holsters can cause the handgun to engage that "High Wall" and unexpectedly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the trigger is in what Smith & Wesson calls "the striker fire action mode". A discharge or "firing" of the weapon in this manner could cause property damage or personal injury or death to the user and/or others.

Regardless of what firearm you are using with the holster, you should immediately determine if your holster is included in the two groups of holsters affected by this recall as described in the actual Notice linked below. If it is, you must stop using it and return it to Blackhawk Products Group by following the procedure contained in the linked Notice.

One could argue it is a training issue with the "high wall" SERPA. However, I think most rational people will agree there was a design flaw that a simple change corrected. So gear design is a factor and can contribute to unintentional discharges.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Here's the opinion of one of the many training agencies that discourage the use of the SERPA (in this case ban it from their training):

Blackhawk Serpa Holster - Wilson Tactical Training, LLC.

As an instructor, a shooter with 30 years of experience, and a person who has twelve years of market testing and evaluation experience, I do not recommend the Blackhawk Serpa Holster to anyone. In my opinion, this holster creates a range safety issue due to having to use force to press a button, which falls in close proximity to the trigger group; and the space between the trigger group and the index point not being sufficient to prevent the shooter from prematurely engaging the trigger. As a result of my experience with the Serpa holster, and this test, the Serpa holster is now banned from my classes. The Serpa holster is becoming such a problem that other training companies are starting to ban the use of it as well.

 

[Nightwalker65]

The debate of the safety of the Serpa system(or lack thereof) could go on forever(not unlike the debate of 9 vs 45)......I'm going to voice my opinions based on the video itself.....he made bad gun handling decisions,several of which he pointed out,and others that have been stated elsewhere in this thread........the thing that stands out to me,is that it looks like he's going for almost a "Hollywood" fast draw,(maybe trying to impress someone? We'll probably never know for sure) but it seems to me his brain was about 2 steps ahead of his body. I say this because his finger was on the frame,above the trigger guard as the majority of the pistol cleared,then as the barrel was clearing,he brought his finger down to the trigger,and the ND occurred......I think we all agree that his finger should have been nowhere near the trigger until the weapon cleared his body,no matter how fast he drew the weapon...............anyhow,that's the way it looked to me,so there's my

 

[MilitaryArms]

I can clearly see in the slow motion that his index finger goes straight from the lock release to the trigger as he pulled upwards on the handgun. It wasn't above or below the trigger, it went straight to it. I talked to Mr. Grebner on the phone after this happened and that's also how he recalled it happening. He said that the lock didn't release on his first attempt so he curled his finger to push with the tip and when he pulled up, he was still pushing down. This landed his finger right on the trigger - and the video seems to confirm this is in fact what happened.

 

[esrice]

Here's the opinion of one of the many training agencies that discourage the use of the SERPA (in this case ban it from their training):

I first started hearing about the SERPA issues from Tactical Response, and then later from MDFI.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Yeah, Tactical Response has an issue with them too.

 

[Shay]

I first started hearing about the SERPA issues from Tactical Response, and then later from MDFI.

Paul Gomez was an early and vocal objector to the Serpa design.

He wrote a lengthy letter to Blackhawk! that was widely circulated around the net at the time.

 

[cedartop]

A bad gear design can be overcome by good gun handling..

Coach, this is true, but why should it have to be? If I am a race car driver, I don't use substandard tires to prove that I can overcome them.

 

[Fargo]

You may not believe it, but this isn't the first time this has happened. However, this is one of the few videos that exist showing the issue actually taking place though. Why do you think various training organizations ban the SERPA or discourage its use?

I can tell you why, because as I've come to learn this scenario has played out too many times to be coincidence. Such unintentional discharges have happened to guys with more training than Mr. Grebner.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it hasn't happened to others. It hasn't happened to me either (I've owned SERPA's for years) but I also can't deny the mounting evidence the design is flawed and a potential a safety liability, especially when compared to other designs such as the Safariland 6300 series.

I know this isn't the first time this has happened. I also know of quite a few quick draw ND's with other holsters, including more than one that happened to shooters while I was present. Every one of them, including the one on the video, appears to me to have been directly related to getting the trigger way too early, not because of pushing the release.

Everyone wants to pretend they're immune to such mishaps because their gear is the best on the market (brand loyalty) and they're the most experienced person with firearms they know.

I have no brand loyalty to Blackhawk; I'm not a huge fan of most of their stuff and generally do not buy from them. I also agree the Serpa is far from a perfect design for a number of different reasons. However, if you are using it properly, which this operator by his own admission was not, it simply does not put your finger on the trigger. I also am far from being close to the "most experienced person with firearms" I know. There are many with vastly more experience, training, and knowledge than I do. That said, when I own something and have used it for years, I can generally have some idea of how it works...

I can clearly see in the slow motion that his index finger goes straight from the lock release to the trigger as he pulled upwards on the handgun. It wasn't above or below the trigger, it went straight to it. I talked to Mr. Grebner on the phone after this happened and that's also how he recalled it happening. He said that the lock didn't release on his first attempt so he curled his finger to push with the tip and when he pulled up, he was still pushing down. This landed his finger right on the trigger - and the video seems to confirm this is in fact what happened.

Keep in mind, this guy admits he fumbled the release and couldn't clear the gun from the holster. Rather than stopping in a safe fashion, he continues to jerk on the gun while stabbing at the release. Serpas will NOT release if you start pulling on the gun prior to depressing the button.

Basically, this guy has already muffed his draw, and has already screwed the pooch in another aspect by unsafing based upon the muscle memory of another holster (which curiously has garnered virtually none of the criticism the Serpa has). He hamfists the gun and the release and manages to get on the trigger WAAAAAY early and shoot himself.

How a fumbled draw of a negligently unsafed weapon is the holster's fault is simply beyond me.

I put to you that if you looked at it objectively, there are probably as great a percentage of ND's with other holsters as with the Serpa. The Serpa gets the blame because there is this nice built in excuse with it which makes the folks that just corked a round off unintentionally feel better about themselves.

I actually agree with Shay's title to this thread, I'm just a little surprised that he and quite a few others apparently do not.

Best,

Joe