Church security, is everyone an expert?

[Vigilant]

If I’m at my range and don’t have a holster on, or at least no holster for the gun in my hand at the time, and need to pick up dropped mags is a good example. Others may be jumping out of a truck after pulling the gun out of its holster in storage, either to get the holster out or grab mags, earpro, gloves etc.
I am almost always alone, 98% of the time.
When others are around my behavior changes, I would unload a gun before picking up mags etc in front of others especially newbies.
Another point I have thought of that might not occur to others is that all my guns have safeties, no striker fired guns at all.

So the four or three or one rule/s of gun safety only apply when someone else is around? You’d intentionally point a gun UP range to retrieve magazines that have fallen, or allow your muzzle to point behind you as you armpit it, hopping out of the truck?

 

[Vigilant]

Only if you're at church at Sun Aura Resort in Roselawn, Indiana.

 

[Coach]

I respect your opinion as a person and a trainer so I want to ask you, with your experience - Do you really expect that when a 'situation' goes down involving a bad guy and good guys with guns that no one will get swept? Not a classroom/range setting but a real life situation. I have no military or LEO experience but I can not imagine that not sweeping anyone with a muzzle is even possible, if you're going to be 'involved'. It is further my opinion that to hold oneself to that standard is to probably eliminate any possibility of having a shot. Am I wrong?

Yes I think it can be done. I think it has to be trained and practiced regularly. You will do in a situation what you do without thinking. If bad gun handling is your norm you will not rise to the occasion. Once upon a time I was a reserve officer. 4 of us kicked in a door expecting to confront and armed criminal and fully expecting to do some shooting. It was tense. We had cleared out all of the adjoining rooms in that area before going in. No one in the stack got swept by a muzzle. We managed to do gun handling right. It can be done. There are many examples of bad gun handling but those bad examples do not speak to what is possible.

 

[ditcherman]

So the four or three or one rule/s of gun safety only apply when someone else is around? You’d intentionally point a gun UP range to retrieve magazines that have fallen, or allow your muzzle to point behind you as you armpit it, hopping out of the truck?

1. still applying. gun is pointed at nothing I am willing to destroy (ground), there is no target (once again, ground) and burger hook off bang switch.
2. I have a dynamic range with multiple berms, woods all around and wide open country beyond woods. so yes, slightly up range but still at ground.
3. in thinking about it gun goes in pit after hopped out, feet already on ground, and once again gun pointed at ground.
Have you vetted me enough to know that you don't want to come shooting with me yet? I do promise that if we are ever in a class together that I will be one of the best behaved (4 rules wise) people there.

 

[ditcherman]

Yes I think it can be done. I think it has to be trained and practiced regularly. You will do in a situation what you do without thinking. If bad gun handling is your norm you will not rise to the occasion. Once upon a time I was a reserve officer. 4 of us kicked in a door expecting to confront and armed criminal and fully expecting to do some shooting. It was tense. We had cleared out all of the adjoining rooms in that area before going in. No one in the stack got swept by a muzzle. We managed to do gun handling right. It can be done. There are many examples of bad gun handling but those bad examples do not speak to what is possible.

Thanks for your time and response. I'll concentrate on this more, as others have pointed out as well we won't rise above our training.

 

[Trigger Time]

If you've spent much time in classes and competition, muzzle discipline becomes ingrained. You don't get away with pointing the gun at others and get called out on it if even close.

I'm sure that when pressure is on and bullets are flying that innocents might come close to being swept. The well trained good guy will have a much stronger grasp of where their muzzle needs to point, when their finger needs to be on the trigger and when not.

I'm not trying to pick on the crowd MIL/LEO crowd, but I have seen many come through these organizations with a very poor grasp of muzzle discipline. Certainly seen solid gun handlers from MIL/LEO also, but just having experience working in those agencies do not assure that.

Most of the serious people who kill people for a living understand when to take the safety off and pull the trigger or just pull the trigger (depending on the weapon). They won't be the ones making mistakes. By mistakes I mean shooting people who dont need shot.
In their world its impossible to not sweep people you don't plan on shooting.
In the play world its possible not to. Range warriors play by range rules and shame anyone not playing by them. Hey thats cool. Its their world, on their range. I can follow rules in their house.
Look here how I feel about this. Flame me, i don't give a ****.
I will kill bad people that need killed. If my muzzle crosses someone innocent for a split second that didnt need killed, they wont be killed. They also wont spontainiously explode like a vampire staked through the heart if my muzzle crosses them for a split second so that I can get a faster shot on a piece of crap.
At the end of the day the bad guy will be dead. Internet ninjas will flame me and I will never do one single press interview anyways because some people dont want to be famous or in the spotlight. End of story

 

[Jackson]

On the gun handling and sweeping people:

Can it be done 100% perfectly? Maybe not. It can be done well and the muzzle can be managed deliberately to reduce or eliminate the risk of putting a bullet in something or someone that doesn't need a bullet. In most cases it is worth taking that care.

Leveling the gun out in front of you or in a slightly depressed low ready while running through a crowd of churchgoers is not taking due care.

Someone cited special operators in on a hostile battlefield not worrying themselves with a focus on muzzle discipline. I don't know how true that is. Assuming it is true, I bet they don't sweep their teammates if they can help it. Everyone else is either enemy or potential enemy from their perspective. People I may sit next to in church are more like teammates than random background on the battlefield. Not to mention the fact that none of the church security team members were Delta as far as I know. Context matters.

It's not so hard to avert the muzzle in a relatively more safe direction. There is a place for a muzzle up position. This might be one of them. Or straight down. Or leave it in the holster while running across the room, waiting to draw until you can actually see something to shoot at. Frees up the hands to manage the people you're trying to get through or catch yourself when you fall off the church pew.

Just my thoughts. I'm not an expert on church security or anything else. I am confident that holes put in parishioners by the security team are just as bad as holes put in by the shooter. It's best to avoid them.

 

[Vigilant]

On the gun handling and sweeping people:

Can it be done 100% perfectly? Maybe not. It can be done well and the muzzle can be managed deliberately to reduce or eliminate the risk of putting a bullet in something or someone that doesn't need a bullet. In most cases it is worth taking that care.

Leveling the gun out in front of you or in a slightly depressed low ready while running through a crowd of churchgoers is not taking due care.

Someone cited special operators in on a hostile battlefield not worrying themselves with a focus on muzzle discipline. I don't know how true that is. Assuming it is true, I bet they don't sweep their teammates if they can help it. Everyone else is either enemy or potential enemy from their perspective. People I may sit next to in church are more like teammates than random background on the battlefield. Not to mention the fact that none of the church security team members were Delta as far as I know. Context matters.

It's not so hard to avert the muzzle in a relatively more safe direction. There is a place for a muzzle up position. This might be one of them. Or straight down. Or leave it in the holster while running across the room, waiting to draw until you can actually see something to shoot at. Frees up the hands to manage the people you're trying to get through or catch yourself when you fall off the church pew.

Just my thoughts. I'm not an expert on church security or anything else. I am confident that holes put in parishioners by the security team are just as bad as holes put in by the shooter. It's best to avoid them.

Sooo, armpit ready, what’s your thoughts on that?

 

[Jackson]

Sooo, armpit ready, what’s your thoughts on that?

Haha. Uhm... less than ideal. Maybe not a cardinal sin depending on the circumstances, but there are probably much better options.

 

[ditcherman]

Sooo, armpit ready, what’s your thoughts on that?

If you’re going to call names, at least capitalize them.
Armpit Ready.
Two things; keep in mind I never said this guys behavior was ok in this setting.
And I have a story to tell, oh the irony.
In first grade the teacher Mrs. Reames (I loved her) was going around asking what everyone wanted to be when they grew up. All the normal answers, farmer, fireman, construction worker, and then it got around to me and I said I just want to make people laugh. Well they laughed at me all right, and I felt so ashamed of my answer, I put my head down on my desk and tucked my face in my armpit and was laughing, I guess. Maybe crying, I don’t know. So then to add to my humiliation they started calling me armpit laugher. So here we are.
Of course in retrospect I realized the teacher thought that was the best answer, and I learned to be my own person from that.
And I have also succeeded in making people laugh every day.
It doesn’t get much more ironic than this I don’t suppose.
I hope you laughed at this true story, and have a good day.

 

[Vigilant]

If you’re going to call names, at least capitalize them.
Armpit Ready.
Two things; keep in mind I never said this guys behavior was ok in this setting.
And I have a story to tell, oh the irony.
In first grade the teacher Mrs. Reames (I loved her) was going around asking what everyone wanted to be when they grew up. All the normal answers, farmer, fireman, construction worker, and then it got around to me and I said I just want to make people laugh. Well they laughed at me all right, and I felt so ashamed of my answer, I put my head down on my desk and tucked my face in my armpit and was laughing, I guess. Maybe crying, I don’t know. So then to add to my humiliation they started calling me armpit laugher. So here we are.
Of course in retrospect I realized the teacher thought that was the best answer, and I learned to be my own person from that.
And I have also succeeded in making people laugh every day.
It doesn’t get much more ironic than this I don’t suppose.
I hope you laughed at this true story, and have a good day.

Appears you took offense, the Armpit Ready wasn’t pointed toward you, but the guy on video actually doing it. I will say I’m surprised to find people saying meh to this means of firearm retention in this specific case?

 

[ditcherman]

Appears you took offense, the Armpit Ready wasn’t pointed toward you, but the guy on video actually doing it. I will say I’m surprised to find people saying meh to this means of firearm retention in this specific case?

Not really offended, the sarcasm or humor didn’t really come through on that. I have failed.

 

[Thor]

Not really offended, the sarcasm or humor didn’t really come through on that. I have failed.

No you didn't...some folks just refuse to see humor.

 

[Vigilant]

I see humor, and sarcasm, I just saw it differently than he typed it.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;qqlqmBi7uVI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqlqmBi7uVI[/video]

 

[churchmouse]

Appears you took offense, the Armpit Ready wasn’t pointed toward you, but the guy on video actually doing it. I will say I’m surprised to find people saying meh to this means of firearm retention in this specific case?

I see it as idiotic. Poor firearm handling period.

And I laughed.

Catch up man.

 

[Vigilant]

I see it as idiotic. Poor firearm handling period.

Which was why I was surprised that people actually thought it had a place?

 

[Trapper Jim]

Again I will not comment on who did what right or wrong on Mr. Wilson as I was not there or involved. I will wait for my friend Mas to investigate and report in his column. What I can say however, is it appears that most every controversial thing I have ever posted re enforces my training. Awareness, the courage to react, confront humbly nose to nose if possible, low round count, shot placement, silent presentation if needed (not all presentations require shooting (run silent, run deep)), reholstering if required, and muzzle awareness. We teach and drill hard on the noob about sweeping the muzzle but in our ability driven modules we point out and train that friendlies can end up in front of your muzzle and this is a condition of fighting only. Be alert, be ready, be skilled.

 

[Coach]

It is difficult to say always and never and be right.

 

[Trapper Jim]

It is difficult to say always and never and be right.

True statement. While there are exceptions to every rule, it takes not so common common sense to see it.