Church security, is everyone an expert?

[cedartop]

Did the first guy shot, with his slow telegraphed draw, prompt the shotgunner into shooting?

Great question. Who knows in fact but my opinion is no. First off the bad guy was going to shoot at some point anyway. I think he did it then because of something he said to the guy serving communion or in that guys response or gesture towards the first victim.

 

[Thor]

Id actually advocate against that slightly if there were an active church security team. Personally I don’t want to get smoked by one of them thinking I may be a secondary shooter? Until it came down to me or mine in that specific situation, I would cover my family and wait/attempt egress.

So, you'll wait to see if anyone is going to defend you and your family? When seconds count...at this point it may be quarters of seconds, do what you think is right. I'd take the shot.

There were two who died before the security came to action. Not saying he didn't do his job in a timely fashion but still...

 

[bwframe]

Do we know if the first guy shot was part of the security team or not?

 

[cedartop]

Do we know if the first guy shot was part of the security team or not?

According to Mr. Wilson he was.

 

[churchmouse]

So, you'll wait to see if anyone is going to defend you and your family? When seconds count...at this point it may be quarters of seconds, do what you think is right. I'd take the shot.

There were two who died before the security came to action. Not saying he didn't do his job in a timely fashion but still...

My head is always on a swivel. If I miss something and catch it later it makes me mad. We need to be alert.
Yes my family is 1st last and always. But I would move to take the need action as my spouse knows what to do if she is alerted.

 

[Vigilant]

So, you'll wait to see if anyone is going to defend you and your family? When seconds count...at this point it may be quarters of seconds, do what you think is right. I'd take the shot.

There were two who died before the security came to action. Not saying he didn't do his job in a timely fashion but still...

Both who died were in the security team. And no I didn’t say I’d wait for someone to defend me, I said me and mine first, everyone else secondary if necessary. If it pops off in front of me, it’s on. If it pops off across a room of 100 or 1000, and there is a security team present it’s on them while I get me and mine to safety, if it’s still in full party mode once mine are safe, I’ll advance cautiously so as not to be ventilated by an over eager sheepdog who may or may not have sufficient training. I already know how I’d respond on a two way range, so I’m not worried about fight, fright, or freeze, in myself, but I don’t know Jack about the “security team “.

 

[Coach]

Overly trigger happy sheepdogs did not damage in this instance. There were many guns produced and swarmed around and no one shot each other. The police did not arrive and gun anyone down with a drawn gun either. The real world and typical ingo thinking are not in line on this.

 

[Coach]

At the end of the day the worst case scenario is the one that should be trained for---and that worst case happened last week in Texas when a murderer with a shotgun and the intent to keep using it, used it on good folks in a place of worship. Best result for that worst case is having a guy with a gun that can take 1 shot and put it in the head of the murderer...ending it. I believe the study should be less about what makes up a perfect security team and more about how the good guy put himself in a position to win against evil---and save lives doing it: Years and years and years of preparation. My question to myself is simple: Am I doing enough, daily, to be able to do that when called upon?

+1

 

[Coach]

I was thinking in the context of bw's question about how it might be handled differently, and how it is unlikely to go down the same way again, and how the fake beard in Mr. Wilson's explanation just seemed so strange, that the odds of someone intent on evil coming in with a beard moving around on their face seem very small. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, editing the post for some clarity just in case it matters someday.

I was talking with a friend yesterday. We were on the same church security team previously. We both agreed that dealing with people at church that "are just not right" is a fly in the ointment. The major mission of the church is to be open and welcoming to all. There can be a number of "just not right" people on any given Sunday. Many/most are harmless this clown in Texas was not harmless. The team down there had eyes on him and were aware of him and I would say complete with the Orient phase of the OODA loop, but needed to decide sooner. My feeling is they would have decided to Act sooner had this been some other setting in their daily lives instead of in a worship service. Solving this issue is a tough one.

 

[ditcherman]

I was talking with a friend yesterday. We were on the same church security team previously. We both agreed that dealing with people at church that "are just not right" is a fly in the ointment. The major mission of the church is to be open and welcoming to all. There can be a number of "just not right" people on any given Sunday. Many/most are harmless this clown in Texas was not harmless. The team down there had eyes on him and were aware of him and I would say complete with the Orient phase of the OODA loop, but needed to decide sooner. My feeling is they would have decided to Act sooner had this been some other setting in their daily lives instead of in a worship service. Solving this issue is a tough one.

Completely agree with you about the mission. If someone is ‘just not quite right’ a little bit of interaction will go a long way toward determining if more interaction/discovery is needed, without offending anyone who doesn’t actually mean harm. If they are accidentally offended, when you explain that you are there to protect and we live in this crazy world hopefully they’ll accept that and move on.

 

[Vigilant]

Overly trigger happy sheepdogs did not damage in this instance. There were many guns produced and swarmed around and no one shot each other. The police did not arrive and gun anyone down with a drawn gun either. The real world and typical ingo thinking are not in line on this.

Tell that to the UPS driver, and many civilians shot up by the NYPD, the gun handling displayed by all but Mr. Wilson was pretty poor, and any one of them would have been chastised by all the safety nazis in existence. Sure these guys didn’t harm anyone with poor gun handling, but that doesn’t say your gunfight will be the same.

 

[ditcherman]

Tell that to the UPS driver, and many civilians shot up by the NYPD, the gun handling displayed by all but Mr. Wilson was pretty poor, and any one of them would have been chastised by all the safety nazis in existence. Sure these guys didn’t harm anyone with poor gun handling, but that doesn’t say your gunfight will be the same.

I think the NYPD/UPS situation is completely different, the cops didn't run in on a mixed bag of good/bad guys, they made a decision to open fire to end the situation, collateral damage be damned, from my understanding.
To be honest I kind of roll my eyes at anyone watching the video and complaining about muzzle discipline. Sure, we're taught that in class but in a real life situation where 1/4 seconds count muzzle discipline is out the window, trigger discipline is where it's at. Even Mr. Wilson said in the video that the only shot he had was a head shot and he had to wait for that one. Well, if he only had a head shot I bet that on the video we have, if you could even come close to seeing it, you would say he had poor muzzle discipline. He had to be just inches from a person not his target as he aimed across the room, which by all standards not emergency is poor muzzle discipline. The others that drew might have had poor muzzle discipline but they obviously didn't have poor trigger discipline.

 

[ECS686]

Tell that to the UPS driver, and many civilians shot up by the NYPD, the gun handling displayed by all but Mr. Wilson was pretty poor, and any one of them would have been chastised by all the safety nazis in existence. Sure these guys didn’t harm anyone with poor gun handling, but that doesn’t say your gunfight will be the same.

Respectfully, the police shootings you mentioned have zero relevance with the Church incident. And in fairness to NYPD there really isn't anyway to have a shootout in Times Square or a whole lot of street corners in the big Apple without a bystander getting hit for that matter. The difference is officers are backed by Agencies that write checks for that whole within the scope of employment clause that most civilians do not. If Mr Murphy shows up!

And while the Church members firearms handling might not have been on a Tier 1 level people forget they are just average Joe's. I will say for the most part they performed better than many self proclaimed gun guys I have seen on the range or in a match do and that is with zero stress there.

 

[Vigilant]

Respectfully, the police shootings you mentioned have zero relevance with the Church incident.

And while the Church members firearms handling might not have been on a Tier 1 level people forget they are just average Joe's. I will say for the most part they performed better than many self proclaimed gun guys I have seen on the range or in a match do and that is with zero stress there.

The police shootings have relevance in regards to the quote I posted, and your last paragraph kinda relates to my point. It was said that poor gunhandling and all, no one else was hurt by a bunch of “average Joe’s”, the relevance of the police shootings being that they aren’t “average joe’s” and have training, and **** still gets shot that ain’t supposed to. So I was merely stating that if I were not on the accepted church security team, I would be quite a bit more careful about introducing my unknown gun into a bunch of average Joe’s with guns who are tasked with the job of security.

 

[Vigilant]

I think the NYPD/UPS situation is completely different, the cops didn't run in on a mixed bag of good/bad guys, they made a decision to open fire to end the situation, collateral damage be damned, from my understanding.
To be honest I kind of roll my eyes at anyone watching the video and complaining about muzzle discipline. Sure, we're taught that in class but in a real life situation where 1/4 seconds count muzzle discipline is out the window, trigger discipline is where it's at. Even Mr. Wilson said in the video that the only shot he had was a head shot and he had to wait for that one. Well, if he only had a head shot I bet that on the video we have, if you could even come close to seeing it, you would say he had poor muzzle discipline. He had to be just inches from a person not his target as he aimed across the room, which by all standards not emergency is poor muzzle discipline. The others that drew might have had poor muzzle discipline but they obviously didn't have poor trigger discipline.

You guys aren’t tracking what I’m trying to get across, so I’ll stop here. But in response, the video I saw, Wilson was the only one displaying good gun handling techniques, one guy shoves his loaded pistol in his armpit so he can dial the damned phone?

 

[ditcherman]

You guys aren’t tracking what I’m trying to get across, so I’ll stop here. But in response, the video I saw, Wilson was the only one displaying good gun handling techniques, one guy shoves his loaded pistol in his armpit so he can dial the damned phone?

I have obviously not watched as good of quality video as you have because I did not see that, I only saw the initial live feed and didn't watch it as much as I should have I guess. I didn't want to become some sort of sicko.
I always come from the point of view that I will know everybody (good from bad) in a church scenario, and they will know me, I guess if I was visiting somewhere I might be more hesitant to draw.

 

[Vigilant]

I have obviously not watched as good of quality video as you have because I did not see that, I only saw the initial live feed and didn't watch it as much as I should have I guess. I didn't want to become some sort of sicko.
I always come from the point of view that I will know everybody (good from bad) in a church scenario, and they will know me, I guess if I was visiting somewhere I might be more hesitant to draw.

Go to a church that has multiple service times each holding over 1000.

 

[BlackGun]

 

[Brad69]

Wow over 1000 people several services in one day!

This is why I am aspiring to be a prosperity preacher!

In the instructor world people are attempting to make a living I am sure that many more will be offering a Church product soon.
I mean with a hot chick, a go fund me account, some a tattoos and a YouTube channel you can start a business in the “gun and tactics” realm.

 

[Trigger Time]

A firearm drawn correctly and we’d have a different “hero”. Surreptitious drawstrokes should be practiced by all serious about self defense. Many here are afraid of themselves and their tools, and cringe at appendix carry, but appendix carry, and a proper drawstroke would have greatly changed the outcome for at least one man. 3 seconds into the dead mans draw is when he was killed. That leaves about 1.5 seconds from draw to first round for an average shooter.

Hell just moving and causing the shooter to turn his body to the left more I think would have kept him from being shot before he could get a shot off. But then what would have happened after that?
Everything happens for a reason but everyone should be trained to get off the damn X even if it doesn't involve guns. Turn the situation into your advantage in some small way by moving.

At the end of the day we are in charge of our own security and have just as much right to protect ourselves and anyone else as any "ordained" force. If you feel you need to use deadly force and are capable then do so. There may be a situation in your life where a person of authority is failing to act and it could cause death. You may have to become the authority and act. Rules go out the window when its life or death. Choose to live.
If you carry and Aren't comfortable in your abilities to properly and safely use that weapon then you had better get off your ass and get training. Because you are a dumbass if you don't. Even if you are a broke ho or crippled you can literally do stuff in your home to train and become better trained. There are no excuses