Coronovirus IV

[jamil]

It's getting to the point I don't think fruitful discussion is even possible.

Covid is the basis for some getting their way politically. Any sense of reason is entirely out of the window at that point. As I said, they have to pick whether george floyd died from covid or from police, and that is the basis for picking whether we want to go with the 10k number or 160k number.
But because they usually line up on a specific side of the isle, they will never acknowledge this logical problem, and will do everything possible to avoid having to think about it or address it.

In your instance, the individual clearly died from heart disease.
If someone gets aids and then dies from a cold, we NEVER say they died from the cold. We say they died from aids.

When people die from pneumonia as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death. When someone does from some kind of heart issue as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death.
I think that rather than taking the recent CDC update as "quietly agreeing that covid is no big deal", it's a better interpretation to say, it's good news, that if you are healthy, your chance of dying from covid is pretty rare compared with people who have other health conditions. Also it would be a good question to answer, why do some people get pneumonia with covid and some people don't. Because pneumonia is such a common comorbidity, if that question were solved that could be a lot few people who die.

And it's my suspicion that this is how "normal" resolves. We live with the many flu viruses in the world. Yeah, there are vaccines but those are too hit or miss to have an overall large effect over years. People still get the flu and people die from having the flu and we just rely on treating it best we can. We can't just make wearing masks the new normal. We can't indefinitely quarantine people. I honestly don't believe there is an effective, safe vaccine just over the horizon, so we can't just suspend living "normal" until the magical elixir is conjured. So I think at least the interim "normal" is living with it, and trying to mitigate risks through better treatments. Maybe at some point the virus will burn out. Or maybe there will be a vaccine within the next 5-10 years that puts coronaviruses behind us.

 

[HoughMade]

When people die from pneumonia as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death. When someone does from some kind of heart issue as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death.
I think that rather than taking the recent CDC update as "quietly agreeing that covid is no big deal", it's a better interpretation to say, it's good news, that if you are healthy, your chance of dying from covid is pretty rare compared with people who have other health conditions. Also it would be a good question to answer, why do some people get pneumonia with covid and some people don't. Because pneumonia is such a common comorbidity, if that question were solved that could be a lot few people who die.

And it's my suspicion that this is how "normal" resolves. We live with the many flu viruses in the world. Yeah, there are vaccines but those are too hit or miss to have an overall large effect over years. People still get the flu and people die from having the flu and we just rely on treating it best we can. We can't just make wearing masks the new normal. We can't indefinitely quarantine people. I honestly don't believe there is an effective, safe vaccine just over the horizon, so we can't just suspend living "normal" until the magical elixir is conjured. So I think at least the interim "normal" is living with it, and trying to mitigate risks through better treatments. Maybe at some point the virus will burn out. Or maybe there will be a vaccine within the next 5-10 years that puts coronaviruses behind us.

All reasonable.

Personally, I think a vaccine is coming sooner rather than later. There is no history of vaccine development that provides any guidance for timelines as there has never been an effort by so many different developers working in parallel with so much money available...ever. One thing to keep in mind that a vaccine that only supplies temporally limited resistance ("immunity" is a misnomer) would likely be enough to break the cycle of new infections enough to turn this into just another flu that makes the rounds from time to time, albeit one that is a particular problem for some people.

One of the fascinating things about this disease is how differently it affects different people. I suspect that it is a function of both the innate (or developed) immune systems of the people combined with the difference in viral loads people experience. Once we understand this better and develop strategies based upon this, I think this thing is largely done with or without a vaccine.

You hear so much about respiratory issues, but my sister and her kids had no respiratory symptoms (thankfully). Her kids had a really bad 5 to 7 days with high fevers and GI symptoms. My sister is about 30 days in. She felt a bit better with no fever at about 18 days in, then got bad again and GI symptoms, weakness, fatigue, nausea, and dizziness with a fever again for over a week. She has been feeling better for about 4 days, now, but is still greatly affected. Crazy.

 

[Ziggidy]

When people die from pneumonia as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death. When someone does from some kind of heart issue as a complication of having covid, it is rightly tallied as a covid death.

So what you are saying is Covid can never be a second or third listing? Covid always has to be the number one reason for death...always?


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[nonobaddog]

So what you are saying is Covid can never be a second or third listing? Covid always has to be the number one reason for death...always?

I don’t see where that quote says what you claim it does at all.

 

[IronsKeeper]

So what you are saying is Covid can never be a second or third listing? Covid always has to be the number one reason for death...always?


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Put it this way- they are tallying COVID-19 exactly as they do influenza. Pneumonia brought on by the flu? That is counted as a flu death. Properly, both get listed.

The only abnormality is that 10k people had no other cause listed. THOSE are the suspect cases. Or happened when people were, indeed, dying in droves and the ME was overwhelmed. There was a short time of that occurring in the bigger cities, legitimately.

Viruses don't just "kill" you, they generally cause other issues that do. You list both/all.


We went over this during my paramedic class 6 years ago- it isn't a new concept.

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[Leadeye]

I'll be curious to see how many businesses fail from all of this and who ends up buying the now devalued property.

 

[HoughMade]

I'll be curious to see how many businesses fail from all of this and who ends up buying the now devalued property.

I think the commercial real estate market will collapse, to some extent. Not only for this reason, but how many businesses have found out that they don't need big offices with all their people present to get work done?

 

[Leadeye]

Have to wonder how cities will live on a dramatically shrinking tax base as businesses close, people move away, and property values shrink. Probably look like the 70s before long, with some towns going through bankruptcy like NYC did.

 

[Leadeye]

Have to wonder how cities will live on a dramatically shrinking tax base as businesses close, people move away, and property values shrink. Probably look like the 70s before long, with some towns going through bankruptcy like NYC did.

I can only hope it stars a renaissance in Americas small towns. I can remember when just about every small town in northern Indiana had some sort of manufacturing industry located there. Mixed with an agricultural base it made for a good economy.

 

[foszoe]

I dunno if its that clear cut. If you shoot me
a) 3 times but leave me to bleed out over time however someone comes along and renders assistance so that I end up living a long time.
b) 3 times but leave me to bleed out and no one comes so I die
c) 3 times but you follow up with a kill shot to the head
What killed me?

If I have a condition that if unchecked would kill me
but I take a medication that keeps the condition from killing me
then I get COVID and die

In my view, COVID is the cause of death. comorbidities simply mean conditions that exist along side right? Maybe I am wrong in my understanding. Now if the Comorbidity is a life threatening one perhaps COVID was just the nail in the coffin speeding up the death by a few days/weeks, but if the condition is one that is managable then Covid would be the cause of death.

Actually I did not realize how perverted the system was until we started all the covid crap. I since have learned the the top killer was heart related and have read that heart related paid the most when coded properly. Another follow the money moment. Now covid pays the most, coincidentally it is now the number one killer. The incentive to code for pay is just too great to trust the numbers.

Okay, so you don't have serious heart disease and you get covid and easily survive but your buddy gets it and had the serious heart disease and succumbed to the HD/covid, What was the primary cause of the buddies death? The heart disease that put him on the precipice of death with the first flu or virus that came along or covid itself?

 

[HoughMade]

I look at "but for" causation with a temporal element. Would a person have died when they did but for COVID? If the answer is yes, COVID did not cause their death. If the answer is no, it was a cause of their death...but as always, there can be multiple causes for a death and very often, there are.

Everyone is going to die eventually, so I think the "when they did" issue is critical in determining if the death is due to COVID. Granted, when determining policy, a study of excess death or whether people would have died within, say, 6 months is relevant and should be considered, but both are different issues than whether COVID was a cause of the death.

 

[Mark-DuCo]

Just curious what others think about the only two people I know that have died "from covid" as the hospital is trying to put it.

Both were in their 80's, 1 male, 1 female. They both had stage 4 lung cancer and after their last visit to the hospital were both given less than a week to live. Well not surprisingly they both died within a week of getting that news. At the times of death it was discovered that that both were positive for covid so the hospital chalked them both up to covid deaths.

These were seperate incidences about 2 months apart, and to me neither one should have been counted as a covid death. They both died of lung cancer. Maybe covid took a day or two away from them, but they were not going to live anyway.

These two cases are why I have issues believing the numbers that the government is putting out. If it is happening in my small town hospital, it has to be going on in others.

 

[jamil]

So what you are saying is Covid can never be a second or third listing? Covid always has to be the number one reason for death...always?


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No. That's clearly not what I'm saying. I've said over and over that if a person dies from a comorbidity who would not have died but for covid, it's reasonable to list it as a covid death. Of course covid can be a second or third listing, but I don't think the impact covid had on the death is always known. But it often is. I keep talking about the pneumonia thing because pneumonia is a comorbidity that is brought on by the disease in a lot of the covid patients who end up dying. So they're fine before they get covid. They get covid, it devolves into pneumonia, and then they die. And that's also a common thing that happens to the people who die because of the flu. Did they die of pneumonia? Well, yes, but the pneumonia was caused by the flu--or in the case of covid, it was caused by that--and it's right to classify that as a flu or covid death as applicable.

But let's look at this in terms of the statistics. I don't think it's possible to know every exact cause of every death. So it makes sense to list comorbidity. And you tally all of them up. So if someone dies of some kind of heart problem, maybe they've had chronic heart issues, but they also had covid. Was the heart issue the immediate cause of death? Or how did covid contribute to that? Maybe its' only a secondary or tertiary cause. It's just not practical to do autopsies on every patient who dies while being infected with covid to find out. List it, count it, and try to learn from from the aggregate.

There's nothing wrong with doing that if it's done across the board and consistently, unless people think it means something more than it means. Like people trying to use the arbitrarily high numbers to scare people. CNN and other networks have done a bit of that. But that doesn't invalidate the practice, it just impugns their integrity as journalists.

 

[jamil]

Just curious what others think about the only two people I know that have died "from covid" as the hospital is trying to put it.

Both were in their 80's, 1 male, 1 female. They both had stage 4 lung cancer and after their last visit to the hospital were both given less than a week to live. Well not surprisingly they both died within a week of getting that news. At the times of death it was discovered that that both were positive for covid so the hospital chalked them both up to covid deaths.

These were seperate incidences about 2 months apart, and to me neither one should have been counted as a covid death. They both died of lung cancer. Maybe covid took a day or two away from them, but they were not going to live anyway.

These two cases are why I have issues believing the numbers that the government is putting out. If it is happening in my small town hospital, it has to be going on in others.

Who knows? Maybe they would have had two weeks, but covid weakened them to the point they couldn't hold on. I think they died from lung cancer, but they had covid too. I think it's okay either way, either to tally that or just call it lung cancer. Now, if they put down the covid, but wouldn't have but for the money, I think that's kinda ****ty and doesn't help the statistics be more accurate.

 

[BugI02]

Making a a point without distinction. Does the CDC data not show that 6%, just under 10K died without a comorbiditie and the other 94% did? Maybe you don't like people saying this or are afraid some may misunderstand, but that is what the data says.

The CDC actually says "for 6% of the deaths, Covid-19 was the only cause mentioned". Only 10K died from covid alone.

So what % of comorbidities pre existed contracting Covid? If its 100% you may have some leeway with your argument.

From a 'wanting numbers to mean things' standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to want to know the death rates from one or multiple co-morbidities in years prior to WuVid - you know, for the purposes of comparison. I would personally want to know the co-morbidity death rates for a recent notable influenza year, but that would likely agitate the 'it's way worse than the flu' true believers

 

[BugI02]

I dunno if its that clear cut. If you shoot me
a) 3 times but leave me to bleed out over time however someone comes along and renders assistance so that I end up living a long time.
b) 3 times but leave me to bleed out and no one comes so I die
c) 3 times but you follow up with a kill shot to the head
What killed me?

If I have a condition that if unchecked would kill me
but I take a medication that keeps the condition from killing me
then I get COVID and die

In my view, COVID is the cause of death. comorbidities simply mean conditions that exist along side right? Maybe I am wrong in my understanding. Now if the Comorbidity is a life threatening one perhaps COVID was just the nail in the coffin speeding up the death by a few days/weeks, but if the condition is one that is managable then Covid would be the cause of death.

I have seen some scientists advocating calculating years of life lost to WuVid, via residual life expectancy remaining considering age and co-morbidities prior to Wuvid. I would be interested in the effort, but consider it too subjective to be a replacement for current methods

 

[foszoe]

I want to agree but I think it's a trap.

From a 'wanting numbers to mean things' standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to want to know the death rates from one or multiple co-morbidities in years prior to WuVid - you know, for the purposes of comparison. I would personally want to know the co-morbidity death rates for a recent notable influenza year, but that would likely agitate the 'it's way worse than the flu' true believers

 

[Ziggidy]

I'd like to see actual covid test results on the 170k people who have allegedly died from it. Did all individuals who allegedly died of covid have a test done? Did all those who had multiple causes of death, have a covid test? When the alleged spike occured and people were dying in groves, did each one have a test? We all have heard stories of mislabeled death certificates; how many actually had the test? Even those who only had covid listed, how many were tested?

I cannot believe there are 170k plus deaths related to covid. I have a harder time believing that 6000 "only covid" deaths.

We know nothing. All the info has been manipulated, altered, incorrectly entered....blah blah blah.

 

[HoughMade]

Accurately quoted or not, this is my COVID touchstone:

And I thing "ignorance" is more accurate than "stupidity" in the current situation.

 

[jamil]

I'd like to see actual covid test results on the 170k people who have allegedly died from it. Did all individuals who allegedly died of covid have a test done? Did all those who had multiple causes of death, have a covid test? When the alleged spike occured and people were dying in groves, did each one have a test? We all have heard stories of mislabeled death certificates; how many actually had the test? Even those who only had covid listed, how many were tested?

I cannot believe there are 170k plus deaths related to covid. I have a harder time believing that 6000 "only covid" deaths.

We know nothing. All the info has been manipulated, altered, incorrectly entered....blah blah blah.

If there are roughly 6 million people who've tested positive for covid I don't know why 170K deaths would be extraordinary. And I dunno, finding 6K out of 170K where they couldn't or didn't list any other cause also seems fairly ordinary. Also, I wouldn't say we know nothing. And ALL the info has been manipulated, altered, incorrectly entered? All? Really? It seems if it's *all* shouldn't you have some pretty good evidence? So you don't believe any of them? Why? Do you think no one has died from it?