Could you have stopped the evil?

[indykid]

At the distance being discussed, a pistol is not much more than a noise maker. The unfortunate part is that as long as these murderers keep shooting up gun free zones we will never know if an honest person with a gun could have stopped this. Also, if an honest person had stopped the guy in El Paso quickly the idea of 20 dead would not be known.

 

[bwframe]

I have seen you hit off a hand gun across the lake at a gathering of Ingo Miscreants....

Nice of you to say that sir!

Still, I'd be very hard pressed to confidently put stopping rounds on a 50 yard shooter. Not to mention, with no berm to catch every round that missed...

I would need to somehow get closer to to make shots less likely to bring harm to bystanders or myself. I need to up my practice routine.

 

[churchmouse]

Nice of you to say that sir!

Still, I'd be very hard pressed to confidently put stopping rounds on a 50 yard shooter. Not to mention, with no berm to catch every round that missed...

I would need to somehow get closer to to make shots less likely to bring harm to bystanders or myself. I need to up my practice routine.

Completely acceptable. Back ground in a Mall or a wally. Can you angle in for a clean shot. Would you be really pressed to stop the madness and take a shot beyond your ability's. So many variables.

And yes you beat the steel at over 100 that day. I was impressed.

 

[VUPDblue]

Makes me almost ashamed that I don’t carry my backpack rig as much as I should when I’m out and about.

 

[nakinate]

Makes me almost ashamed that I don’t carry my backpack rig as much as I should when I’m out and about.

What does that rig consist of? I’ve seriously considered a backpack gun myself.

 

[actaeon277]

I'm not saying I can, or can't do it.
But it's possible.

https://www.historylink.org/File/8767
Gunman shoots and kills four people and wounds 22 at Fairchild Air Force Base hospital on June 20, 1994.
Meanwhile, Senior Airman Andrew P. Brown, age 25, with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron, was patrolling the base’s housing areas on a bicycle when he received an emergency call on his two-way radio. He pedaled a quarter-mile to the scene and, while still some 70 yards away, spotted Mellberg shooting at scores of panic-stricken people in the parking lot.
Brown ditched his bicycle and ordered the gunman to drop his weapon. When Mellberg turned and shot at him, Brown dropped into a combat crouch and returned fire with his 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol. He fired four rounds at Mellberg; two missed, one hit him in the shoulder and one struck him between the eyes, instantly ending his homicidal rampage. The drum magazine in Mellberg’s MAK-90 still held 19 rounds of ammunition.

 

[Yup!]

What does that rig consist of? I’ve seriously considered a backpack gun myself.

Me too!

 

[indyjohn]

How I see it:

1. I'm good with my Maker. However the outcome, he's got me.

2. Make the shooter have the same problem I have - damn moving target.

3. Use #2 as an opportunity to gain the advantage. Open fire at 10 yds instead of 50. If you're in Walmart you've got plenty of cover.

4. When you arrive within 10 yrds. Refer to point #1.

 

[KellyinAvon]

I'm not saying I can, or can't do it.
But it's possible.

https://www.historylink.org/File/8767
Gunman shoots and kills four people and wounds 22 at Fairchild Air Force Base hospital on June 20, 1994.
Meanwhile, Senior Airman Andrew P. Brown, age 25, with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron, was patrolling the base’s housing areas on a bicycle when he received an emergency call on his two-way radio. He pedaled a quarter-mile to the scene and, while still some 70 yards away, spotted Mellberg shooting at scores of panic-stricken people in the parking lot.
Brown ditched his bicycle and ordered the gunman to drop his weapon. When Mellberg turned and shot at him, Brown dropped into a combat crouch and returned fire with his 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol. He fired four rounds at Mellberg; two missed, one hit him in the shoulder and one struck him between the eyes, instantly ending his homicidal rampage. The drum magazine in Mellberg’s MAK-90 still held 19 rounds of ammunition.

I've been on a couple Air Force forums with Andy Brown. He was a Technical Sergeant (TSgt) when he left the USAF. He did what he had to do, but that day haunts him. Mellberg should've never made it past the MEPS station.

 

[bwframe]

Makes me almost ashamed that I don’t carry my backpack rig as much as I should when I’m out and about.

Certainly food for thought. A rifle as quick access part of your EDC would certainly be a game changer on stopping the evil.

 

[actaeon277]

I've been on a couple Air Force forums with Andy Brown. He was a Technical Sergeant (TSgt) when he left the USAF. He did what he had to do, but that day haunts him. Mellberg should've never made it past the MEPS station.

I understand the day haunting him.
But, he used a pistol, against a rifle at 70 (SEVENTY) yards.
AFTER bicycling a quarter mile.

So, the shot CAN be made.
It's a matter of CAN you (or I).

 

[Yup!]

What does that rig consist of? I’ve seriously considered a backpack gun myself.

https://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/packable-ar-15-pistols-vehicle/

 

[VUPDblue]

 

[churchmouse]

How I see it:

1. I'm good with my Maker. However the outcome, he's got me.

2. Make the shooter have the same problem I have - damn moving target.

3. Use #2 as an opportunity to gain the advantage. Open fire at 10 yds instead of 50. If you're in Walmart you've got plenty of cover.

4. When you arrive within 10 yrds. Refer to point #1.

My 50 yard reference was only a point of accuracy people. Not a distance to actually engage from.
Sorry if I sent this off course.

 

[Cameramonkey]

On the condition I'm flying solo without the ball and chain and kids....

I cant hit him reliably at 50 under stress, but damn I'm still VERY maneuverable and fast on my feet.

I can sure as hell try to get myself within my comfort zone for a solid headshot/thoracic triangle shot. I naturally walk fast, and regularly suprise my coworkers by magically (and quietly) appearing where they dont expect me.

 

[churchmouse]

On the condition I'm flying solo without the ball and chain and kids....

I cant hit him reliably at 50 under stress, but damn I'm still VERY maneuverable and fast on my feet.

I can sure as hell try to get myself within my comfort zone for a solid headshot/thoracic triangle shot. I naturally walk fast, and regularly suprise my coworkers by magically (and quietly) appearing where they dont expect me.

So what you are saying is you are a sneaky little ****.....::

 

[Cameramonkey]

So what you are saying is you are a sneaky little ****.....::

Damn straight!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Somber times like this, after the El Paso active shooter, brings me pause. What could I have done to stop the carnage?

If circumstances were right, could you have put effective stopping rounds on a rifle wielding active shooter?

If you were alone, without family or friends to safely evacuate and had cover, could you have stopped the active shooter from 50 yards with your EDC?

Obviously, the rifle in your trunk would be a better tool, but all you have is your EDC. Could you put effective rounds on the shooter to stop them from further shooting?

We're not talking dangerous to yourself and others spray and pray or foolish "hero" running into the gunfire. We're talking about accurate marksmanship that you have practiced/trained at and can execute with more than 80% of your shots.

Could you make those shots?

No. I could not confidently make that shot. BUT before this gets off into the weeds about proficiency at distance... making that shot really isn't the point. Sure it would be great if you could make that shot, but you're thinking about it in the wrong way. If you are one of the people willing to put yourself in harms way, the best way to stop the carnage is to get the shooter to focus on you. He's not going to continue on his rampage when someone engages him. You're a problem, and to continue on his killing spree, he first has to deal with you. The more time he has to deal with you, the less time he has to kill others. Make the shots if you can, and if you can't simply sending rounds his way changes the dynamic.

 

[bwframe]

No. I could not confidently make that shot. BUT before this gets off into the weeds about proficiency at distance... making that shot really isn't the point. Sure it would be great if you could make that shot, but you're thinking about it in the wrong way. If you are one of the people willing to put yourself in harms way, the best way to stop the carnage is to get the shooter to focus on you. He's not going to continue on his rampage when someone engages him. You're a problem, and to continue on his killing spree, he first has to deal with you. The more time he has to deal with you, the less time he has to kill others. Make the shots if you can, and if you can't simply sending rounds his way changes the dynamic.

I tottally appreciate that sentiment. Most of us however, do not have a get out of jail free card. We are accountable for every single round touched off.

While there are real possibilities the situation could go as you suggest, it's just as possible inocent bystanders are harmed or killed as well as yourself, for naught.

 

[Twangbanger]

I tottally appreciate that sentiment. Most of us however, do not have a get out of jail free card. We are accountable for every single round touched off.

While there are real possibilities the situation could go as you suggest, it's just as possible inocent bystanders are harmed or killed as well as yourself, for naught.

Both of you offer good analyses, and show why this is not cut-and-dried for the civilian individual. Experience has shown that when heroic individuals in M/S situations make themselves the focus of the shooter's attention, without sufficient tools to finish the job, they become part of the bodycount. Something of course needs to be done, but it's a devil of a lot of details when you're the person on the spot.

Regardless and unfortunately, "carry nation" (no pun intended) is just not getting the job done. I don't know whether it just that nobody is carrying, or they're not in a position to act, or what...but there is a definite lack of examples of armed citizens stopping these things. That seems fixable. But it is not happening. When it comes to surviving basic one-on-one robberies and assaults, the armed citizen has some track record of success. But M/S events are still comparatively rare, and one wonders how much the number of carry permits would need to increase, before the good guys (other than ones in uniform) will score the first "win."