Could you have stopped the evil?

[rhino]

If I have the opportunity to get into a prone position or have something else I can use for support, I could make 50 yard pistol shots under stress. Most of these situations are painfully slow and deliberate according to witnesses, so having the time to get into a good position to snipe them isn't that far fetched. Given that my mobility is limited, going prone is probably a good move for me if I choose to engage from distance anyway. I believe that I would try, but we'll never know until the need arises.

If the threat is moving, it depends on how fast and what direction relative to me.

 

[nakinate]

Both of you offer good analyses, and show why this is not cut-and-dried for the civilian individual. Experience has shown that when heroic individuals in M/S situations make themselves the focus of the shooter's attention, without sufficient tools to finish the job, they become part of the bodycount. Something of course needs to be done, but it's a devil of a lot of details when you're the person on the spot.

Regardless and unfortunately, "carry nation" (no pun intended) is just not getting the job done. I don't know whether it just that nobody is carrying, or they're not in a position to act, or what...but there is a definite lack of examples of armed citizens stopping these things. That seems fixable. But it is not happening. When it comes to surviving basic one-on-one robberies and assaults, the armed citizen has some track record of success. But M/S events are still comparatively rare, and one wonders how much the number of carry permits would need to increase, before the good guys (other than ones in uniform) will score the first "win."

I’d argue there are plenty of examples of armed civilians saving the day. They just don’t make national news. I see local news stories from across the country on a weekly basis where armed civilians prevent break-ins, murders, etc.

If an armed civilian is successful in stopping a mass shooter you’re less likely to hear about it.

 

[actaeon277]

If I have the opportunity to get into a prone position or have something else I can use for support, I could make 50 yard pistol shots under stress. Most of these situations are painfully slow and deliberate according to witnesses, so having the time to get into a good position to snipe them isn't that far fetched. Given that my mobility is limited, going prone is probably a good move for me if I choose to engage from distance anyway. I believe that I would try, but we'll never know until the need arises.

If the threat is moving, it depends on how fast and what direction relative to me.

Problem is, you lose mobility.
Using a wall or something as a "rest" for your arm might work better.

 

[actaeon277]

I’d argue there are plenty of examples of armed civilians saving the day. They just don’t make national news. I see local news stories from across the country on a weekly basis where armed civilians prevent break-ins, murders, etc.

If an armed civilian is successful in stopping a mass shooter you’re less likely to hear about it.

If an armed civilian stops a mass shooting early, then it's not a "mass shooting", therefore not national news.

 

[nakinate]

If an armed civilian stops a mass shooting early, then it's not a "mass shooting", therefore not national news.

Precisely

 

[rhino]

Problem is, you lose mobility.
Using a wall or something as a "rest" for your arm might work better.

You seem to be talking about a general person who can run or even walk fast. I was talking about me, not you or someone else. I (rhino) am not losing much in that scenario by going prone unless I have some kind of vehicle available that I choose to abandon. Being down on the ground and sending accurate gunfire toward a threat at 50+ yards is very much a viable option for me compared to trying to lumber and hobble away and probably fall and get hurt anyway.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I tottally appreciate that sentiment. Most of us however, do not have a get out of jail free card. We are accountable for every single round touched off.

While there are real possibilities the situation could go as you suggest, it's just as possible inocent bystanders are harmed or killed as well as yourself, for naught.

You're absolutely right, that is certainly something one should take into consideration.

 

[Cameramonkey]

No. I could not confidently make that shot. BUT before this gets off into the weeds about proficiency at distance... making that shot really isn't the point. Sure it would be great if you could make that shot, but you're thinking about it in the wrong way. If you are one of the people willing to put yourself in harms way, the best way to stop the carnage is to get the shooter to focus on you. He's not going to continue on his rampage when someone engages him. You're a problem, and to continue on his killing spree, he first has to deal with you. The more time he has to deal with you, the less time he has to kill others. Make the shots if you can, and if you can't simply sending rounds his way changes the dynamic.

Both of you offer good analyses, and show why this is not cut-and-dried for the civilian individual. Experience has shown that when heroic individuals in M/S situations make themselves the focus of the shooter's attention, without sufficient tools to finish the job, they become part of the bodycount. Something of course needs to be done, but it's a devil of a lot of details when you're the person on the spot.

And in many cases, the chicken **** runs away and offs himself. (good!) Clackamas mall for instance. I may be wrong, but as I recall the shooter just seeing the guy taking aim at him was enough to make him run away into a stairwell and shoot himself in the head. He just wasnt prepared mentally for any resistance. Given their typical choice of GFZs for targets, its no surprise.

 

[LP1]

Police officers must demonstrate proficiency with their weapons, and their jobs entail being mentally prepared for this kind of thing. Yet an officer in Texas(?) recently shot and killed a woman while trying to shoot an attacking dog, and didn't it take NYC officers 40+ shots before hitting a man from relatively close range a few years ago? Keyboard cowboys should remember these situations before planning to be a hero.

Half a football field away, people running all over the place, possible innocent people beyond the target if a shot is missed, nerves/adrenaline, risk of being misidentified as part of the assault - take cover.

 

[churchmouse]

Both of you offer good analyses, and show why this is not cut-and-dried for the civilian individual. Experience has shown that when heroic individuals in M/S situations make themselves the focus of the shooter's attention, without sufficient tools to finish the job, they become part of the bodycount. Something of course needs to be done, but it's a devil of a lot of details when you're the person on the spot.

Regardless and unfortunately, "carry nation" (no pun intended) is just not getting the job done. I don't know whether it just that nobody is carrying, or they're not in a position to act, or what...but there is a definite lack of examples of armed citizens stopping these things. That seems fixable. But it is not happening. When it comes to surviving basic one-on-one robberies and assaults, the armed citizen has some track record of success. But M/S events are still comparatively rare, and one wonders how much the number of carry permits would need to increase, before the good guys (other than ones in uniform) will score the first "win."

What needs to be covered is the ability and "Willingness" to engage. One has to be willing to step into that role and take the shots (no pun intended) that come with the will to put yourself in harms way to stop the evil. Evil takes many shapes. No 2 are alike and the scenarios are endless.

We have discussed this at length many times in the forum. I would hazard a guess that more than 75% of "Carry Nation" are not willing to step up. Even in a home invasion so so so many are in retreat and barricade. I do not fault them. Not in the least. Family. I get that. At the mall with the spouse or possibly the entire crew and Father protects kicks in 1st and foremost. Again, I get that. And would most likely do the same except my spouse would take cover. She is a pit bull when covering her kids/G-kids from danger. Not everyone is wired like this but she has been exposed to the mindset for years. That might possibly free me up to act again dependent on the situation.

We all have our levels of ability and fight or flight. In my mind and heart, action is required if possible. Like mentioned once you get the shooter to focus on you depending on any training he has had he will be stationary for a period of time. Knowing that even if you successfully stop it the haunting memory and the legality's are next. It has so many downsides.

 

[churchmouse]

If an armed civilian stops a mass shooting early, then it's not a "mass shooting", therefore not national news.

And they refuse to put any positive on these actions. Only the negatives fit the narrative anymore.

 

[churchmouse]

Police officers must demonstrate proficiency with their weapons, and their jobs entail being mentally prepared for this kind of thing. Yet an officer in Texas(?) recently shot and killed a woman while trying to shoot an attacking dog, and didn't it take NYC officers 40+ shots before hitting a man from relatively close range a few years ago? Keyboard cowboys should remember these situations before planning to be a hero.

Half a football field away, people running all over the place, possible innocent people beyond the target if a shot is missed, nerves/adrenaline, risk of being misidentified as part of the assault - take cover.

Again we are stuck on the 50 yard thing. I did not intend to make that the area of engagement and I am not seeing any keyboard cowboys in this thread. Level headed responses so far. The LEO and the dog was just wrong on so many levels.

 

[Denny347]

I tottally appreciate that sentiment. Most of us however, do not have a get out of jail free card. We are accountable for every single round touched off.

While there are real possibilities the situation could go as you suggest, it's just as possible inocent bystanders are harmed or killed as well as yourself, for naught.

No such card exists. Of course this depends on your back drop. I'm a good shot while under stress but if this happened while I was there shopping with my family, my first priority is to get them out FAST and WITHOUT a firefight if possible. Once they are safe, I might be able to re-enter to engage. If I get them back to my patrol car, I can uparmor and grab my rifle and more importantly, my radio. I've seen too many expert shots turn to crap when I start sending rounds at them in training. Static line shooting is great for fundamentals but does nothing to inoculate the shooter to the effects of stress of a gun fight. Engaging a rifle toting active shooter at 50 yards with a pistol has more to do with luck than skill. It's little more than spraying and praying. If I HAD to engage him with my G19 and I was 50+ yards away, It's time to nut up and close that distance. Realize that ANY engagement of a rifleman with a pistol is a losing battle and the odds are NOT in your favor, regardless of the distance. Say your prayers and get to work.

 

[wcd]

What is the level of sound reduction from most Ear Muff style hearing protection? Would he have heard someone returning fire? Would that have been enough to alter the course of events?

 

[Coach]

I can make that shot. I plan for it to be closer than 50 yards. I am not going concede to anyone just because they have a rifle and I dont. If I am ever in the situation and fail. It will be in a pile of brass. You can all run me down after the fact for being inadequate.

Carry nation needs to man up and get better.

 

[Denny347]

What is the level of sound reduction from most Ear Muff style hearing protection? Would he have heard someone returning fire? Would that have been enough to alter the course of events?

Are they active muffs? I betting his hearing is better with the muffs ON than OFF and having the ringing in them from firing a .223 round indoors. LOUD!!!!

 

[Denny347]

I can make that shot. I plan for it to be closer than 50 yards. I am not going concede to anyone just because they have a rifle and I dont. If I am ever in the situation and fail. It will be in a pile of brass. You can all run me down after the fact for being inadequate.

Carry nation needs to man up and get better.

Bet you've trained FoF...

 

[eric001]

Would I be able to make the longer distance shot with a pistol? Good question. On a range, without adrenaline dump issues--sure, center of mass = no problem. Having never been shot at while trying, I just plain don't know. Would I be VERY hesitant to do so unless I had a pretty clear line past the shooter? You betcha. I would not want to put myself into a scenario where I'm adding to the "innocent victim" body count.

Now, would I be willing to try for center of mass at longer range, knowing I'd be putting myself at the top of the shooter's to-do list, hoping that even with adrenaline dump I could do damage to him or at least get him to focus on me instead of random targets? Yup.

I don't think I have any kind of superhero complex, and I'm guessing my accuracy would turn to crap in the heat of the moment--hence the worry about what/who is behind the shooter--but if the opportunity was there... cover, relatively low odds of hitting bystanders, all other factors hopefully NOT against me... Yeah, I would try.

I would only hope and pray that such a decision tree never has to happen for me to have to make in real life, but I carry everywhere I can when I go out with the mindset that I'd rather have it and not need it than need and not have a way of defending myself. I'll be damned if I just become a helpless victim if I have ANY other choices to make.

 

[Vigilant]

No such card exists. Of course this depends on your back drop. I'm a good shot while under stress but if this happened while I was there shopping with my family, my first priority is to get them out FAST and WITHOUT a firefight if possible. Once they are safe, I might be able to re-enter to engage. If I get them back to my patrol car, I can uparmor and grab my rifle and more importantly, my radio. I've seen too many expert shots turn to crap when I start sending rounds at them in training. Static line shooting is great for fundamentals but does nothing to inoculate the shooter to the effects of stress of a gun fight. Engaging a rifle toting active shooter at 50 yards with a pistol has more to do with luck than skill. It's little more than spraying and praying. If I HAD to engage him with my G19 and I was 50+ yards away, It's time to nut up and close that distance. Realize that ANY engagement of a rifleman with a pistol is a losing battle and the odds are NOT in your favor, regardless of the distance. Say your prayers and get to work.

Exactly, FoF training helps to dispel any silly notions of what you can and can’t accomplish under stress. 50 yards is 75 feet 30 of that can be covered in under 2 seconds. If you can’t make the big shot close the distance and engage from a closer position. Use of cover and concealment may slow that 2 seconds to a few seconds or more, but can giv you the opportunity for a well placed shot.

 

[Vigilant]

More importantly, how many of you threw more TQ’s and gauze in your med kits this morning? I added two more Combat Gauze’s, and another handful of Z-fold gauze to my kit, as well as 3 more 4” Izzy’s .