Drawing from a holster September 3, 2013

[Coach]

Last month at the meeting I asked about changing the policy to draw from a holster. There are many mixed feelings about this topic from Board. I typed up a rationale and sent it to the board following the meeting. They are as I understand it thinking this issue over. Those members interested in expressing their views on the issue of drawing from the holster should plan to attend the meeting in September. I am hoping that this topic does not turn heated in any way shape or form. I am hoping for a mature discussion on the topic and hopefully a good decision. I appreciate the Board taking time to consider the issue before making a decision.

 

[chezuki]

I'll be there! I'd be ok with even a compromise of only allowing it in the bays. (Coach knows my draw could use some practice)

 

[pudly]

Thanks for bringing this up. Adding draw would be very helpful. I'll be there.

 

[Coach]

Requestfor a Change in Policy:Aron Bright, as a member in goodstanding, formally requests a change in policy at Marion County Fish and Game,to allow the drawing from a holster during live fire practice with pistols. Isuggest the change for the draw stroke be limited to the bays. I submit that nofinancial investment by the club is necessary by way of supervision orequipment.

Whyis it necessary to draw from a holster at MCFG?
· Draw stroke is anessential skill in self-defense with a handgun
· Draw stroke is anessential skill in many handgun competitions
· Members want thefreedom to practice this skill
· Other clubs allowit without issue

Concerns
· Some membersbelieve the draw stroke to be unsafe completely
· Some membersbelieve that the draw stroke would put the club at risk
· Honestdisagreement on the issue could divide the club
· Some membersbelieve that we have members who cannot handle the draw stroke

Rationale
Thepurpose of joining the club is to shoot. Some shoot for pure enjoyment and someshoot in order to develop practical skills that may needed in self-defense. Thehandgun is the tool of choice for many people when defending life and limb. Theability to get the handgun from the holster and into action safely is vital. Itis a learned skill that must be taught and practiced. Our members regularlycarry guns in public, and they need the skills to use their gun safely andeffectively in order to be properly armed. By not allowing our members thisopportunity we are retarding their development as shooters, and hurting theirchances of self-defense.
If it is unsafe to draw a gun at the gunrange, how could a gun be safely drawn in public in the event that self-defenseis justified? The answer is simple. If drawing from a holster is unsafe at therange, then it has to be unsafe to carry a gun in public. Because if a gun isto be used it will have to be drawn from the holster. Is the club policy of not allowing the drawstroke enabling the anti-gun community by saying this is “too dangerous”? Theanswer here is also simple. Yes it is. If any member here is comfortablesending the message against the exercising of the Second Amendment then theyshould not renew their membership. A prohibition on the draw stroke is harmfulto the full exercise of the Second Amendment.
Ithas been expressed that some members of this club are not able to handle thedraw stroke in a safe manner. There would likely be much agreement that some ofthose same members should not have guns in the first place. If these statementsare valid then action is required. Education is the key to fixing these problems.The solution is not to punish the shooters in the club who are safe and canhandle the draw stroke, which is what the current policy does. Everyone iscapable of safe gun handling, and everyone is capable of a safe draw stroke. Violationsof both happen, and once again education is the key to overcoming this issue.
Theoverwhelming fear that some people have of the draw stroke is unfounded. TheRiley Conservation Club, Atlanta Conservation Club, South Central Gun Club,Silver Creek Conservation Club and the Warsaw Rifle and Pistol Club all allowtheir members to draw from a holster, and have not had issues. None of theclubs listed above use baffled bays in order to further control the draw strokeof members. All of these clubs have the same complaints and problems that MCFGhas about damage done on the range, and sloppy gun handling of some members.However, those ranges remain in operation and they do so without baffles andrange officers.
Thischange of policy if implemented would not be exercised by all members. Somemembers do not shoot pistols and so they have no interest in this drill orskill set. Some pistol shooting members will have no desire to draw from theholster, as they do not carry a gun on a daily basis. Other people choose notto draw from a holster because they do not trust their own ability to do so. Mypoint being that while there will be large interest in the club for the drawstroke it will not be shared everyone. In my experience as an instructor, manypeople are hesitant to draw from the holster. Perhaps further training orqualification would be in order to allow the drawing from a holster. While thiswould make administration of who is qualified or not qualified problematic itwould emphasize the need for safe gun handling. Allowing shooters with aclassification in a shooting sport to draw from a holster perhaps would be aplace to begin. This classification means that the shooter has demonstratedpublicly multiple times the ability to handle and draw a gun safely. Othershooters without a classification could qualify via hands on demonstration oftheir gun handling, or they could be encouraged to get a classification.Additionally if a member can produce a certificate of completion from a trainingclass that has covered the draw stroke they should be considered qualified topractice this skill set at MCFG.
Iappreciate the willingness of the Board of Directions to consider this proposaland to have this discussion. I hope that logic and reason will serve as theguide for all sides in this discussion.

 

[browndog2]

none of the other ranges listed above have Speedway directly behind the back berm about a mile away

Maybe we could build an enclosure (no blue sky) onto the back side of one of the bays for drawing from holsters?

 

[bigcraig]

I don't think rounds getting out of the range, via over the top of the berms in the two bays, is an issue. In fact, most "flubbed" draws put rounds in the dirt. The only "arguable" issue is reholstering a loaded gun, that is when most NDs happen.

My position on this, is for drawing to be allowed in the bays, not on the main firing line.

 

[MontereyC6]

A drawstroke in no way puts the people of Speedway in anymore danger or chance of an errant round leaving the range than there is now. This is coming from a Speedway resident that is well with in striking distance of the range.

 

[chezuki]

none of the other ranges listed above have Speedway directly behind the back berm about a mile away

Maybe we could build an enclosure (no blue sky) onto the back side of one of the bays for drawing from holsters?

Why would this matter? How would drawing from a holster cause someone to send a round over the berm?

 

[Que]

I would encourage the board to approve this proposed policy change. I really would have difficulty understanding why drawing could not be approved for the bays, at least.

 

[chizzle]

I don't want to muddy the waters, but thought I might be able to add some historical perspective since I used to volunteer my time on the Board. These are just some thoughts to chew on while discussing this topic:

1) Drawing pistols from holsters is currently being allowed during Board approved training classes.
2) The Board chose to allow drawing in very controlled circumstances, because it fell under what we considered "Match Conditions" where a skilled Range Officer (in this case USPSA) was present. Without the provision for a Range Officer who is familiar with safe drawing of a firearm, and the responsibility to disqualify someone if they were unsafe, this would not have passed at that time.
3) Marion County Fish and Game has approximately 1100 members.
4) Marion County Fish and Game has a 0% tolerance for rounds leaving the range. 1 round could result in a lawsuit or the closing of our range. Other ranges I have competed at (in more rural areas) typically have a less stringent expectation, and I have seen rounds leave their ranges during match conditions.
5) Marion County Fish and Game has traditionally struggled with a lack of self-reporting. We instituted our Safety Officer program in an effort to head off potential safety concerns.
6) The majority Board vote (not the member popular vote) is what decides an issue and potentially changes rules.
7) Rule book changes require a volunteer to make rule book updates, reprint the rule books, and update on our website.

 

[WebSnyper]

I don't want to muddy the waters, but thought I might be able to add some historical perspective since I used to volunteer my time on the Board. These are just some thoughts to chew on while discussing this topic:

1) Drawing pistols from holsters is currently being allowed during Board approved training classes.
2) The Board chose to allow drawing in very controlled circumstances, because it fell under what we considered "Match Conditions" where a skilled Range Officer (in this case USPSA) was present. Without the provision for a Range Officer who is familiar with safe drawing of a firearm, and the responsibility to disqualify someone if they were unsafe, this would not have passed at that time.
3) Marion County Fish and Game has approximately 1100 members.
4) Marion County Fish and Game has a 0% tolerance for rounds leaving the range. 1 round could result in a lawsuit or the closing of our range. Other ranges I have competed at (in more rural areas) typically have a less stringent expectation, and I have seen rounds leave their ranges during match conditions.
5) Marion County Fish and Game has traditionally struggled with a lack of self-reporting. We instituted our Safety Officer program in an effort to head off potential safety concerns.
6) The majority Board vote (not the member popular vote) is what decides an issue and potentially changes rules.
7) Rule book changes require a volunteer to make rule book updates, reprint the rule books, and update on our website.

Thanks for the history on this. On point 7, it might be time to go to all web based rule books available via download. If a printed rule book is actually required for some reason, maybe sending them out with renewals only or some other compromise.

As far as Coach's proposal, I am a member, and I realize I don't get a vote as this is a board vote, but I'd very much like to see this passed.

Now that there is a training requirement for membership, that could be a mitigating factor regarding the safety aspect.

This is a skill that really needs to be practiced, and I very much doubt it would result in any rounds leaving the range, as others have stated.

 

[browndog2]

Other ranges I have competed at (in more rural areas) typically have a less stringent expectation, and I have seen rounds leave their ranges during match conditions.

I too have witnessed rounds leaving ranges under match conditions.

I am not on the board so my vote does not count.
It is likely the current board will eventually allow drawing from holsters.
There will be no more dissent from me on this issue.

 

[Que]

Chizzle, what is it about drawing from the holster that caused participants to place rounds outside of the range during your competitions? I could see someone pulling a "Tex Grebner", but not easily placing a round outside the range.

LANGUAGE WARNING
[video=youtube_share;p3kJ6SU3ycs]http://youtu.be/p3kJ6SU3ycs[/video]

 

[Grelber]

what is it about drawing from the holster that caused participants to place rounds outside of the range during your competitions?

Getting a bad grip on the gun when attempting to draw fast will do it, I haven't let one go wild because of that but I have gotten the first shot off before I intended to. I had to disqualify a nice guy at a competition who got a really bad grip and ended up tossing his loaded gun on the ground in front of him.

Coach teaches a draw stroke that takes maybe 1/10 of a second of time longer but allows for a consistent positive grip (I'm a convert). One compromise might be to allow only folks who have been trained to draw from holster.

 

[chezuki]

Getting a bad grip on the gun when attempting to draw fast will do it, I haven't let one go wild because of that but I have gotten the first shot off before I intended to. I had to disqualify a nice guy at a competition who got a really bad grip and ended up tossing his loaded gun on the ground in front of him.

Coach teaches a draw stroke that takes maybe 1/10 of a second of time longer but allows for a consistent positive grip (I'm a convert). One compromise might be to allow only folks who have been trained to draw from holster.

This sounds like a Rule 4 issue rather than a draw stroke issue.

 

[Grelber]

This sounds like a Rule 4 issue rather than a draw stroke issue.

I don't have a dawg in this fight (other than that I really enjoyed the range the 1 time I shot there and I hope best for you folks) and so I will quit at this point.

 

[singlesix]

Thanks for the history on this. On point 7, it might be time to go to all web based rule books available via download. If a printed rule book is actually required for some reason, maybe sending them out with renewals only or some other compromise.

.

It's been available MCFG Indy Range - Shooting Range Rules and Property Rules

 

[Coach]

The other ranges that I have mentioned are "more" rural than MCFG but they all have a subdivision or houses or a town within the range of a pistol shot. ACC has houses right across the road and we shoot in that direction, behind those houses is Atlanta itself. Silver Creek as with MCFG does not allow rifles because of so many houses so close. At Riley there are houses south of the rifle range on the lake, to the east is a little league complex, to the north and west are several houses. The argument that MCFG is in Speedway is true but is not as unique as some are prone to think. The draw stroke does not make rounds going over the berm more likely. Nothing we can build would be able to stop all rounds from leaving the range if unsafe gun handling is practiced.

I have shot hundreds of matches over the years and I have seen two or three rounds leave the range and it has never been on the draw. I have seen it on the reload (which means bad gun handling) and I have seen it while aiming and shooting a single target.

The draw stroke does not increase the danger of rounds leaving the range. A change in policy will not close this range. This range will remain open as long as the shooters handle their guns well and hit the backstop. Any shot fired that is not properly controlled could be the last one. I know that many who oppose this are doing so out of concern for the club and for the right reasons but it is time for this to be allowed at MCFG. It is also incumbent on the pistol shooters to use caution and be safe while doing so.

 

[indygunguy]

No big deal, but for what it's worth... I'm a former MCFG member that now drives to Atlanta to shoot. The MCFG ban on drawing from a holster was my whole reason for leaving MCFG to join Atlanta.

 

[WebSnyper]

It's been available MCFG Indy Range - Shooting Range Rules and Property Rules

Understood, I was responding to the mention that all rule changes required someone to volunteer update the printed rule book.

I have never liked reluctance to update the rule book as a reason not to consider changing the rules