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Drawing from a holster September 3, 2013
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Not trying to argue with you; I understand completely what you're saying. I'm a member at ACC in addition to MCFG for exactly the same reason. If drawing was allowed at MCFG, I would likely drop my membership at ACC because MCFG is so much closer to my house (10 minute drive versus an hour).
Honestly just curious if there are other ranges in Marion County that allow drawing from a holster; I can't think of any, but there may be one that I don't know about.
I wanted to attend the meeting, but other commitments prevented me from being there. This is a very interesting discussion and if the officers are desiring feedback on this forum, I would be glad to give my input.
It's important to keep in mind that with 1100 members and only 7 Board members, that it is pretty easy for Board Members to get overloaded with "feedback" (some good, some bad). I know when I was on the Board, I also took it very personally when somebody critiqued my work, because I'm pretty thin skinned, and I take a lot of pride in what I've helped build in the club. That being said, it's a lot easier to be philosophical about rule changes when I'm not the one that's going to be stuck with the work of rule book updates, crabby members that don't agree (no matter what the decision), website updates, constantly trying to promote positive PR, etc., etc.
If you're looking to chat among other members and know that Board members may occasionally read through the thread, I think that's a good role for our Subforum. If you want your voice to be heard, or to talk with a Board member, I strongly encourage you to attend a Board meeting. I'd also avoid "ambushing" one of our volunteers at the club (seeing them and then talking their ear off about club issues) as I know several people that just quit coming to the club because "every time I did, it felt like work". It's important that we remember that these folks are volunteers, and that we give them some personal space to enjoy the club too.
I am familiar with all the members of the board, with one exception. I know them to be shooters and forward-thinkers. I have no desire to chat among members on the board about this decision, because I'm sure the majority are in favor of the change. I have confidence the board will make the decision they believe to be right. If any of us disagree, we have the right to run against them and work to make the change. I appreciate what they do as volunteers and because I know what happened when the board asked for volunteers to be ROs at the range, I was just trying to understand if they would like feedback through this venue.
There appeared to be a lot of information flowing and my intent with my post was to ensure I wasn't adding to any perceived pressure from the members and non-members alike, to influence the vote. Board meetings are not always convenient for all to attend and I am there when I can and I wish I could have attended this one.
I wish I'd been in town for the meeting. I am a MCFG member and it is frustrating that we cannot work from the holster. I used to drive over an hour to use a range where I had the freedom to work how I liked. My skills improved considerably because of it. Unfortunately, that range closed for financial reasons. The rule against drawing from the holster is one of my cheif complaints about MCFG. I should probably just get a membership to ACC.
I agree with some of the above posters. If a person is going to be unsafe drawing from the hoslter, they are probably unsafe otherwise. I would be on board with requiring a higher level of training for members to mitigate the safety risks associated with allowing holster work.
If there is another meeting where this issue comes up I will make an effort to attend and voice my opinion.
I agree with some of the above posters. If a person is going to be unsafe drawing from the hoslter, they are probably unsafe otherwise. I would be on board with requiring a higher level of training for members to mitigate the safety risks associated with allowing holster work.
If there is another meeting where this issue comes up I will make an effort to attend and voice my opinion.
You can attend the next meeting and ask to be recognized to present your point of view.
I believe that BGF allows drawing. Whomever it was they make a point to remind you to not rush it for safety's sake because its not a speed competition, and to make sure you not hit the bench as you draw. Maybe it was pop guns, but I do recall one of the two ranges I have been at allow it because they made note of an issue people have had doing it.
Did they have someone like an RO, bulletproof windows (so they can watch), or closed circuit TV that constantly monitored the range to make sure folks were drawing safely?
Safety training was already put in as a requirement not that long ago. I know existing members were grandfathered in, but wouldn't that already be a mitigation?
Not in Indiana, but at a rather large club in Jacksonville, FL that my brother is a member of and I have attended as a guest, draw is allowed in certain bays that are open to members. They have some sections that are open to day shooters, but draw from holster and other things are not allowed there. Nor is it allowed on the general range. It is only allowed in specific bays, restricted to members and their guests. The club itself is located in a populated area very near housing subdivisions, etc. My brother actually lives very near the range.
I think the training requirement would make it much more palatable for members that have reservations about allowing folks to draw in the bays. How would you identify folks that have received proper training from others?
I'm a little reticent to suggest it, but since I too would like to see holster drawing allowed for the purpose of improving my training, if a training requirement were implemented I think it would easy enough to procure a special sticker (odd enough to not be duplicated easily) that could be attached to the member badge for the purpose of identification.
I think your idea is a good one. I was talking to somebody on the committee for this issue this morning and we were actually discussing the same idea. MCFG needs some way to quickly and visually identify who is allowed to draw, and who isn't. Our thoughts were:
1) Hi visibility sticker instead of current badge (neon yellow, pink, orange, whatever) so that people can see at a distance that you're trained
2) Some sort of training requirement (possibly USPSA RO, training class by Bright Firearms Class, or Train to Be Safe) that specifically trains how to draw safely
3) An "upgrade fee" (likely $25) to cover the cost of doing paperwork, any necessary badges, etc.
4) Buddy Requirement. Just like you go swimming with a buddy (for safety), it might be a good idea to require a buddy to be present when practicing. This would be for the benefit of the club (two people witnessing what is going on) and for shooters safety (in the event of an accident like shooting yourself in the leg).
My gut feel is that if the upcoming proposal was incorporated into what is being proposed, that it would address many of the concerns that folks have, and would get enough votes to pass. This would work in conjunction with folks filling out Safety Concern Forms and the Board enforcing the rules (and suspending folks as necessary).
chizzle, I was ok with everything up to #4. It would make it too hard for many to actually be able to draw from a holster because how do coordinate with others when you go and what if the individual doesn't know another member there to schedule this with. For myself, I have a job that has many "odd" hours and I try to go to the range when not many people are there. I get the feeling with all of the extra special rules that we, the members, would be treated like irresponsible kids. Personally, I think the range should either allow drawing from the holster or don't. No special rules that complicates something that should be so simple.
I don't want to get into an argument with you here, but just want to spur discussion. If we were to change the subject from shooting to swimming, would your opinion be any different? I know lots of folks that would find it dangerous to go swimming by themselves (you could accidentally drown) but who don't have similar concerns with practicing their draw with live ammo (people have shot themselves in the leg, or had near misses). I'm not on the Board (so I don't get a vote here), but to me the issues seem very similar. I respect your views and am not offended if we don't agree, I'd just like to hear your thoughts on the comparison to see if you think it is a fair one.
Not trying to be argumentative, just participating in the discussion on this thread.
The comparison for swimming is not entirely similar. None the less I don't feel that having a person to go swimming with necessarily makes it any safer, unless they where trained in water rescue. When i go swimming with others I have no delusions that i won't drown because others are around. It is up to me to know how proficient i am and to stay within my own limitations. Now back to drawing from a holster. When I go to a friends private range and when I am alone, I practice drawing from the holster and firing. How would having another person there help make it safer if I were to pull a Tex Grubner? Say they are not trained to treat a gunshot wound, how would they know what to do? Sure they could call 911, but couldn't I do that on my own? Maybe they could drive me to a hospital, if they knew where one was (chances are they may have an iPhone). But depending on the severity of the gunshot would and my ability of self-treatment, wouldn't I be able to do that as well? I have been to other ranges that allow drawing from the holster and don't ever recall a buddy system requirement. In fact, I don't recall having special rules, training, or fees for individuals that like to practice drawing from a holster. It is either allowed, or it isn't.
edit: I forgot to mention that I don't think that having a buddy system would stop someone from shooting themselves in the first place.
The comparison for swimming is not entirely similar. None the less I don't feel that having a person to go swimming with necessarily makes it any safer, unless they where trained in water rescue. When i go swimming with others I have no delusions that i won't drown because others are around. It is up to me to know how proficient i am and to stay within my own limitations. Now back to drawing from a holster. When I go to a friends private range and when I am alone, I practice drawing from the holster and firing. How would having another person there help make it safer if I were to pull a Tex Grubner? Say they are not trained to treat a gunshot wound, how would they know what to do? Sure they could call 911, but couldn't I do that on my own? Maybe they could drive me to a hospital, if they knew where one was (chances are they may have an iPhone). But depending on the severity of the gunshot would and my ability of self-treatment, wouldn't I be able to do that as well? I have been to other ranges that allow drawing from the holster and don't ever recall a buddy system requirement. In fact, I don't recall having special rules, training, or fees for individuals that like to practice drawing from a holster. It is either allowed, or it isn't.
edit: I forgot to mention that I don't think that having a buddy system would stop someone from shooting themselves in the first place.
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Thank you for taking my comments in the spirit with which they were intended. To me the comparison breaks down like this:
- Private places (your own personal pool, or your own personal range): You don't require a buddy because the safety and liability is all your own. If you get killed, it's your life that you're risking. If your insurance rates go up, it's your money you were risking.
- Public / non-profit business places (public pool, our range): There is a "lifeguard on duty" type policy because the liability falls on the club if you get hurt. As someone who has worked with our club lawyer when dealing with tense issues, I think it is important to know that the range (and the 7 people on the Board) are ultimately the ones who have to untangle legal snafus if they occur. In my experience, they take a tremendous amount of time, cost lots of money (even if you have a wonderful pro-bono lawyer like we have), and they can be significant 1-time events that can shut down otherwise successful clubs. About 5 years ago I worked with Brad (our current VP) to fight through a tough legal situation (~$35,000 settlement) that could have forced us sell the club in order to pay off the settlement. I NEVER EVER want to be in that predicament again.
Again, I appreciate your input. I'm sure that whatever the Board eventually decides will have the best interest of the club in mind. I think it is valuable to have these discussions in an effort to flesh out the concerns of the membership, so that we get an updated rule book that works for many years to come.
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It sounds to me like they are considering high barriers to entry to significantly limit people actually exercising the privilege. When did draw stroke become a highly-specialized skill that only high-speed USPSA shooters and people with tons of training can accomplish without killing themselves? In my view, it is a basic skill. It is one of the first pieces of gun-handling a shooter should develop after they accomplish basic gun safety and can follow the four rules.
How did these trained, high-speed USPSA shooters learn to draw and shoot safely if it wasn't through practice? They must have had a range on which to practice to develop those skills. I doubt this many restrictions were in place when they did it. Make the required training for membership include draw stroke and let them shoot as they like. You have to trust the members to be safe.
I keep using USPSA shooters as an example because you're holding them up as the standard. None of this is an argument, just expressing my views.
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