Drawing from a holster September 3, 2013

[CB45]

Not all USPSA competitors are fast draws people. Matter of fact 90% draw in 1.5s or more. I only know a handful of people in Indiana who can pull off sub second draws. USPSA is not a fast draw sport. Its a safety sport, with a very good reputation for safety. Every competitor I have ever met has been safety conscious.

Competitive handgun shooters make up a very small percentage of the gun owners. I think that's what scares the board, the fear that MCF&G will be used unsafely for people to try to emulate what they see on YouTube.

Truth is, most gun owners are just as concerned with safety as USPSA shooters. A lot of gun owners have never drawn a gun from a holster. The first time used a drew a gun and fired a shot was at a USPSA match last Spring.

At MCF&G, a small few have scared a lot of people. Nobody will stand up and report those people. That is the problem.

Drawing from a holster isn't the problem, self policing hss been the problem.



By the way, somebody pointed out that I had a .76s draw on a stage at my last major USPSA match. It took about 2000 hours of dryfire and live fire practice to get where I'm at today. Never once did I shoot over a berm on a draw stroke.

Fast doesn't mean unsafe.

 

[Jackson]

Not all USPSA competitors are fast draws people. Matter of fact 90% draw in 1.5s or more. I only know a handful of people in Indiana who can pull off sub second draws. USPSA is not a fast draw sport. Its a safety sport, with a very good reputation for safety. Every competitor I have ever met has been safety conscious.

Competitive handgun shooters make up a very small percentage of the gun owners. I think that's what scares the board, the fear that MCF&G will be used unsafely for people to try to emulate what they see on YouTube.

Truth is, most gun owners are just as concerned with safety as USPSA shooters. A lot of gun owners have never drawn a gun from a holster. The first time used a drew a gun and fired a shot was at a USPSA match last Spring.

At MCF&G, a small few have scared a lot of people. Nobody will stand up and report those people. That is the problem.

Drawing from a holster isn't the problem, self policing hss been the problem.



By the way, somebody pointed out that I had a .76s draw on a stage at my last major USPSA match. It took about 2000 hours of dryfire and live fire practice to get where I'm at today. Never once did I shoot over a berm on a draw stroke.
Fast doesn't mean unsafe.

I am guessing you put in that live-fire practice at a range where it was within the rules to work from the holster. I would be curious to know what the rate of draw stroke related safety inciidents are at a ranges that allow it.

 

[Que]

I think your idea is a good one. I was talking to somebody on the committee for this issue this morning and we were actually discussing the same idea. MCFG needs some way to quickly and visually identify who is allowed to draw, and who isn't. Our thoughts were:

1) Hi visibility sticker instead of current badge (neon yellow, pink, orange, whatever) so that people can see at a distance that you're trained.

This probably won't cost much, but will be an additional cost for the club.

2) Some sort of training requirement (possibly USPSA RO, training class by Bright Firearms Class, or Train to Be Safe) that specifically trains how to draw safely.

This will be an additional ~$50 for each member who wants to participate.

3) An "upgrade fee" (likely $25) to cover the cost of doing paperwork, any necessary badges, etc..

Another $25, which brings us to ~$75.

4) Buddy Requirement. Just like you go swimming with a buddy (for safety), it might be a good idea to require a buddy to be present when practicing. This would be for the benefit of the club (two people witnessing what is going on) and for shooters safety (in the event of an accident like shooting yourself in the leg)..

I hardly ever see anyone at the range when I go and when I do it's someone I do not know. When the range is deserted, I guess I would not be able to draw and shoot?

My gut feel is that if the upcoming proposal was incorporated into what is being proposed, that it would address many of the concerns that folks have, and would get enough votes to pass. This would work in conjunction with folks filling out Safety Concern Forms and the Board enforcing the rules (and suspending folks as necessary).

Being the immediate past-President, you have much greater access to the board members that most of us. If we cannot make it to the board meetings, Is there a way that we can possibly have our concerns or suggestions considered?

I've spoken with a few members who have concerns about this proposal, but they are not shooters who frequent the bays. Would it be possible to consider allowing member to draw and shoot only in the bays?

 

[pudly]

This probably won't cost much, but will be an additional cost for the club.

Given the quotes I was hearing at the meeting for different account balances, I believe this is a relatively trivial addition.

I hardly ever see anyone at the range when I go and when I do it's someone I do not know. When the range is deserted, I guess I would not be able to draw and shoot?

I share the same concern.

Being the immediate past-President, you have much greater access to the board members that most of us. If we cannot make it to the board meetings, Is there a way that we can possibly have our concerns or suggestions considered?

I've spoken with a few members who have concerns about this proposal, but they are not shooters who frequent the bays. Would it be possible to consider allowing member to draw and shoot only in the bays?

I'm not sure you saw my summary of the last meeting at MCFG. It answers some of your questions: link.

 

[CB45]

I am guessing you put in that live-fire practice at a range where it was within the rules to work from the holster. I would be curious to know what the rate of draw stroke related safety inciidents are at a ranges that allow it.

Na, I'm a rule breaker, I do what I want wherever I want. I don't take responsibility for my own actions and I expect other people to suffer the consequences. I do this because I'm a pistol shooter under the age of 40, we are all unsafe, inconsiderate, and rude. Oh wait, that was supposed to be in purple or something.

That's the point, drawing from the holster doesn't change the safety indexes. Safe people will be safe.

I am a board member at MCF&G and I hate having rules that tell people that they can't do something.

In the end the board will make decisions based on the best interest of the club. There is a reason its been around for so long.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Did they have someone like an RO, bulletproof windows (so they can watch), or closed circuit TV that constantly monitored the range to make sure folks were drawing safely?

At BGF they have a RO on duty with a 42" screen at his desk and a camera behind each lane as I recall (or one between dividers to cover two lanes at a time).

 

[Jackson]

Na, I'm a rule breaker, I do what I want wherever I want. I don't take responsibility for my own actions and I expect other people to suffer the consequences. I do this because I'm a pistol shooter under the age of 40, we are all unsafe, inconsiderate, and rude. Oh wait, that was supposed to be in purple or something.

That's the point, drawing from the holster doesn't change the safety indexes. Safe people will be safe.

I am a board member at MCF&G and I hate having rules that tell people that they can't do something.

In the end the board will make decisions based on the best interest of the club. There is a reason its been around for so long.

I wasnt trying to criticize or upset you. I am glad to see a board member joining in the discussion. Where do you go to practice your drawstroke?

 

[CB45]

I wasnt trying to criticize or upset you. I am glad to see a board member joining in the discussion. Where do you go to practice your drawstroke?

Just as Chizzle, I'm a member at ACC as well.

The sarcastic remark wasn't directed towards you, but towards those who stereotype. I can't stand being stereotyped due to my age and appearance.

I read the entire thread, and my conclusion is that most everyone wants it. Those who don't, aren't willing to help with the "self-policing" policy to ensure the safety and future of the club.

Both sides of the argument have valid compliants and concerns. I look forward to the next board meeting to discuss this issue. I miss one meeting this year, and it all falls apart.

 

[Que]

Just as Chizzle, I'm a member at ACC as well.

The sarcastic remark wasn't directed towards you, but towards those who stereotype. I can't stand being stereotyped due to my age and appearance.

What stereotype? You look about 40, so how old are you?

 

[chezuki]

I can't stand being stereotyped due to my age and appearance.

"Awe, are ya lost li'l fella?"

 

[BravoMike]

Just as Chizzle, I'm a member at ACC as well.

The sarcastic remark wasn't directed towards you, but towards those who stereotype. I can't stand being stereotyped due to my age and appearance.

I read the entire thread, and my conclusion is that most everyone wants it. Those who don't, aren't willing to help with the "self-policing" policy to ensure the safety and future of the club.

Both sides of the argument have valid compliants and concerns. I look forward to the next board meeting to discuss this issue. I miss one meeting this year, and it all falls apart.

I am curious, and this is a sincere question. What is it about ACC that makes it ok to draw and fire from the holster and not MCFG? I too have never shot a round over a berm when practicing and firing when drawing out of a holster, but have never participated in any competitive shooting sport that requires it. (BTW, I am also a sub 40yo rebal with a gun, but I do my best to be as safe as i can.)

Thank you for your input!

 

[CB45]

I am curious, and this is a sincere question. What is it about ACC that makes it ok to draw and fire from the holster and not MCFG? I too have never shot a round over a berm when practicing and firing when drawing out of a holster, but have never participated in any competitive shooting sport that requires it. (BTW, I am also a sub 40yo rebal with a gun, but I do my best to be as safe as i can.)

Thank you for your input!

The idea is that because MCF&G faces Speedway, there is greater exposure to risk than at ACC.

The risk already exists beacause the range faces Speedway. Some fear that adding drawing from a holster will increase it.


The first 4 pages really explains just about every point of view.

 

[bwframe]

I wasnt trying to criticize or upset you...

...The sarcastic remark wasn't directed towards you, but towards those who stereotype. I can't stand being stereotyped due to my age and appearance...

Both of you girls are pretty...

 

[Jackson]

Both of you girls are pretty...

Thanks sweetness.

 

[WebSnyper]

I think your idea is a good one. I was talking to somebody on the committee for this issue this morning and we were actually discussing the same idea. MCFG needs some way to quickly and visually identify who is allowed to draw, and who isn't. Our thoughts were:

1) Hi visibility sticker instead of current badge (neon yellow, pink, orange, whatever) so that people can see at a distance that you're trained
2) Some sort of training requirement (possibly USPSA RO, training class by Bright Firearms Class, or Train to Be Safe) that specifically trains how to draw safely
3) An "upgrade fee" (likely $25) to cover the cost of doing paperwork, any necessary badges, etc.
4) Buddy Requirement. Just like you go swimming with a buddy (for safety), it might be a good idea to require a buddy to be present when practicing. This would be for the benefit of the club (two people witnessing what is going on) and for shooters safety (in the event of an accident like shooting yourself in the leg).

My gut feel is that if the upcoming proposal was incorporated into what is being proposed, that it would address many of the concerns that folks have, and would get enough votes to pass. This would work in conjunction with folks filling out Safety Concern Forms and the Board enforcing the rules (and suspending folks as necessary).

Seems like too much. Why wouldn't the existing training requirement cover this? Again, I realize that existing members were grandfathered in when the training requirement was passed (somehow those of us who were already members are safer than those who weren't... who knew)

Adding all the fees and the buddy requirement just seems like overkill. I shoot by myself for the most part, and I can tell you that I do that for a reason. I want to focus on my shooting. It is nice to shoot with someone when you can to help "spot" you and provide pointers on form, etc, but it is not always available. It doesn't make me shoot any safer, but the person may just notice something related to stance, etc.

Restricting it to the bays would seem the more reasonable route.

Does having a buddy present somehow insulate the club from liability?

I think the training requirement would make it much more palatable for members that have reservations about allowing folks to draw in the bays. How would you identify folks that have received proper training from others?

I wasn't trying to suggest an addition to the training requirement. I was stating that there is already a training requirement that was not required for membership previously and should already cover this as a mitigation.

I personally have taken the Intermediate Pistol course taught by Coach at MCF&G and it covered the draw quite well. (I was already an MCF&G member before the training requirement, but still took this class).

N

That's the point, drawing from the holster doesn't change the safety indexes. Safe people will be safe.

Agreed!

The idea is that because MCF&G faces Speedway, there is greater exposure to risk than at ACC.

The risk already exists because the range faces Speedway.

Agreed. The risk is already there. Draw stroke won't add to it.

 

[bwframe]

Just from a former member, part time competitive shooter, part time RO, full time gun toter:

Rounds going over the berm happen from poor range discipline. People who put rounds over the berm will do it whether you let them draw from the holster or not.

 

[Wolverine6G]

I agree the reason I joined MCFG was so I can go at odd times and sometimes be the only shooter on grounds. I prefer it this way. Adding a second shooter only complicates penciling in time to shoot. With my already hectic schedule makes practicing almost impossible. I would agree it be only restricted to bays and not on the main line.

 

[chizzle]

Just from a former member, part time competitive shooter, part time RO, full time gun toter:

Rounds going over the berm happen from poor range discipline. People who put rounds over the berm will do it whether you let them draw from the holster or not.

Burl,

I agree with you, but unfortunately we're experiencing a lack of people reporting issues (and people don't often report themselves). Since self-reporting is a major hurdle, I offered up the idea of the buddy system for when folks are basically under "match conditions" (practicing classifiers, etc.). I agree that it isn't perfect, but I'm not sure how else a club can head off a potential problem before it results in a round leaving the range.

As the former president, I find the mindset of "you just gotta trust people" or "just kick the bad people out" hard to implement in any practical way. In my mind, the Board is trying strike a balance between allowing folks to draw (something many want) while managing concerns from members that allowing folks to draw increases the risk to the club. While we can argue how much or how little risk this added step brings, the scientist in me tells me that the closer we get to match-like conditions, the closer we get to match-like risk (and the typical things that come with matches, like RO's). I think the person who can come up with a proposal that balances what people want (to draw) with the concerns members have (the need to find a way to safely manage the additional risk) is going to have a proposal that could pass a Board vote. If folks get stuck in the "IT'S NOT DANGEROUS" versus "YES IT IS" argument, we're going to be stuck in a stalemate for the foreseeable future.
Sincerely,
Chuck

 

[ilfishin]

I agree with you, but unfortunately we're experiencing a lack of people reporting issues (and people don't often report themselves). Since self-reporting is a major hurdle, I offered up the idea of the buddy system for when folks are basically under "match conditions" (practicing classifiers, etc.). I agree that it isn't perfect, but I'm not sure how else a club can head off a potential problem before it results in a round leaving the range.

I have seen this mentioned a few times in this thead. How would you know there is a lack of reporting? If people are not reporting issues, could it be that maybe there aren't many issues to be reported. I'm not a fan of the snitch program. I have seen some unsafe actions there before and just handled them myself. I explained the rules in a respectful way, offered my assistance if needed and moved on. If you treat people with respect and not like children, most of them respond in a positive way. If I am doing something wrong, tell me so and help me correct it. Don't sneak off and tattle. That dosen't accomplish anything, it just builds resentment towards the system.

As for the drawing issue? I think that at some point you have to trust your members. You can not control every action of every member.

Charging fees to be able to take part in this action is absurd. With the current economy, I know some members that have to save all year just to renew their membership just so they can have someplace to shoot.

The buddy system? Uh, no. 90% of the time I shoot alone. I like it that way. I can relax and go at my own pace.

All in all, I enjoy being a member and shooting at MCF&G. But I wonder what would happen to the member count if there were another club reasonably close.

 

[chizzle]

I have seen this mentioned a few times in this thead. How would you know there is a lack of reporting? If people are not reporting issues, could it be that maybe there aren't many issues to be reported. I'm not a fan of the snitch program. I have seen some unsafe actions there before and just handled them myself. I explained the rules in a respectful way, offered my assistance if needed and moved on. If you treat people with respect and not like children, most of them respond in a positive way. If I am doing something wrong, tell me so and help me correct it. Don't sneak off and tattle. That dosen't accomplish anything, it just builds resentment towards the system.

As for the drawing issue? I think that at some point you have to trust your members. You can not control every action of every member.

Charging fees to be able to take part in this action is absurd. With the current economy, I know some members that have to save all year just to renew their membership just so they can have someplace to shoot.

The buddy system? Uh, no. 90% of the time I shoot alone. I like it that way. I can relax and go at my own pace.

All in all, I enjoy being a member and shooting at MCF&G. But I wonder what would happen to the member count if there were another club reasonably close.

I can tell that we don't agree on this issue. I'm not going to try and persuade or argue with you; I'll just try to lay out some facts:

Q: How would you know there is a lack of reporting?
A: When I was the club president I would commonly get complaints from folks that said something to the effect of: "I saw somebody breaking rule XXX? We should do something about it!" My follow up question would usually be "Did you talk to them or get their contact info?" The answer was almost invariably "No". Unfortunately, this creates a no-win situation for Board members. The Safety Concern Form and Safety Officer program were both created to help us combat this issue. I also really dislike the use of the term "snitch" when it comes to filling out the Safety Concern Form. Our Safety Concern Form program was created in an effort to make sure that the rules created by our elected Board Members get enforced. By using these forms, we've headed off a lot of safety issues, and kicked folks out of the club when necessary. My goal when I volunteered at the club was to make a fun, friendly club for individuals that bought into our safety programs and who followed our rules. While it may not be for everybody, it's a business plan that has resulted in the growth from ~400 members when I started about 7 years ago, to about ~1100 members when I stepped off the Board in 2013.

I'm troubled with the line of reasoning that we just have to allow something, and that we don't need to do anything to manage the concerns some members have with safety. I feel like what folks are really saying is:

"MCFG should allow ME to draw whenever I want (during normal business hours) and MCFG and the Board should accept all the liability and responsibility."

As someone who helped the club manage through a tough time (workers compensation claim after the accidental death of our groundskeeper), I don't want to go through something like that again. As a former Board member, I do not want to volunteer my time (~80 hours per year, even without any big issues) to be on the Board again, especially if I feel like I'm potentially going to have to deal with insurance issues, police reports, legal issues, etc. While as a member you stand to get hurt, or lose your place to shoot, the volunteer Board Members stand to lose days of their year dealing with issues (aside from just getting the plan implemented), and the club potentially has to pay the bill.