Example of what happens with illegal aliens

[Fletch]

Fletch, Que pasa My wife is CUBAN, & she is a U.S. CITIZEN, she is here legally. We should only hired legal AMERICANS don't care the color of their skin, hair, or the car they drive.

This doesn't address my objection. My objection is that ElsiePeaRN stated pretty clearly that she did not know the immigration status of her gardener. The salient bits of information she gave were his first name, his language skills, his rates, and the fact that he did a better job than the white guys.

Jeremy wanted her jailed for "aiding a criminal", when there are no facts in evidence that he was a criminal. He assumed Pedro to be illegal until he can be proven otherwise. You endorsed this position.

We don't even know if Pedro was a dry-foot Cuban like your wife. He is assumed to be an illegal from elsewhere on the basis of the scant facts above.

This is the problem I have with all of the various immigration discussions on this board. It always comes down to a large group of people saying, essentially, "all Hispanics must be presumed illegal until I get to see their papers." That seems like the very definition of racism.

 

[Fletch]

Why is it so hard to understand ILLEGAL and LEGAL ????????

I understand perfectly. I just don't care. I've already stated as much, upthread.

 

[gunman41mag]

Be LEGAL & pay INCOME TAX, SOCIAL SECURITIES, I don't have a problem

 

[88GT]

I understand perfectly. I just don't care. I've already stated as much, upthread.

I wouldn't have a problem with cross-border labor competition if it were actually competing on the same playing field. But the current labor regulations in the U.S. don't allow for that. So until then, I will be opposed to a FOREIGN labor force that reaps the benefits, but pays none of the costs, nor assumes any of the risks.

 

[Fletch]

I wouldn't have a problem with cross-border labor competition if it were actually competing on the same playing field. But the current labor regulations in the U.S. don't allow for that. So until then, I will be opposed to a FOREIGN labor force that reaps the benefits, but pays none of the costs, nor assumes any of the risks.

I can generally agree to such a sentiment. I just identify a different group of people as the primary villain(s) in this dynamic.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

Actually I personally feel you should have been Jailed for aiding a Criminal...

LOL I see. And what is the crime?

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

jeremy is right, if nobody would hired illegals, they won't be coming here, but the greed of saving a couple of dollars, you have sold out all AMERICANS that are here LEGALLY

Did you even read my post?

Edited to add: I hired the white guy to save a few bucks. I hired the Mexican to actually get good quality work. I think you've missed the point entirely.

 

[88GT]

I can generally agree to such a sentiment. I just identify a different group of people as the primary villain(s) in this dynamic.

For me it's not different. It's additional. One group handicaps us and creates the vacuum, the other violates our sovereignty and sweeps in to take advantage of it.

 

[beararms1776]

Agreeing with the Arizona law does not make someone a racist by any means.

No, but that's always the cards they play.

 

[stormryder]

Yes, but on the basis of the following pieces of information:

1: a guy named Pedro
2: who doesn't speak much English and
3: charges less than the local white guys,

you and Jeremy are going to assume that he's illegal until proven otherwise. Tell me how else that's supposed to play.

I would if he cannot SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!

At the Furniture Factory up the block from where I live, made special effort to hire Illegal N.E.S.M.Fers because they were cheap labor.

2 things happened.

1-Increase of break-ins, Gang activity and the Neighborhood went down hill.

2-Because quality coming out of the Factory took a nose dive, a 100+ year old factory shut down and said Illegals left the area and we are still trying to rebuild the damages done.

So I have no love loss for any Illegals in any way, shape or form, and stil feel they should be treated as Enemy Infiltrators and made example of.

 

[hornadylnl]

Silly Fletch. Protectionism is the driving force of innovation and quality products.

 

[Fletch]

So I have no love loss for any Illegals in any way, shape or form, and stil feel they should be treated as Enemy Infiltrators and made example of.

Yeah, but what do you think?

 

[hornadylnl]

My employer is begging for workers right now. We are bringing in new groups of temps every week with a turn over rate of at least 50% in the first week. The pay starts at $10 an hour and is pretty simple work for those who are used to actually working.

If they could legally bus workers up from Mexico, I'm sure they'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Fletch]

Silly Fletch. Protectionism is the driving force of innovation and quality products.

Of course it is. For all the yap about capitalism and the free market ideals America was supposedly founded on, Americans are deathly afraid of having to compete with anyone. Even Abraham Lincoln worried about freed slaves entering the marketplace and taking jobs from "good, hardworking Americans ".

If we spent half as much time and energy doing our jobs and competing as we do *****ing and moaning about the competition, we'd leave them in the dirt. Instead we have this weird idea that being Americans means we're entitled to coast for 40 years, then collect a fat pension.

 

[Fletch]

Huh? I disagree with the Arizona law, but this is farfetched. Agreeing with the Arizona law does not make someone a racist by any means.

No, but that's always the cards they play.

The Arizona law is stupid and counterproductive, but agreeing with it doesn't make anyone a racist.

 

[jeremy]

LOL I see. And what is the crime?

The crime by You or Him?!

Him...
Title 8 USC 1325

You...
CPC 401 Aiding and Abetting...

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Of course it is. For all the yap about capitalism and the free market ideals America was supposedly founded on, Americans are deathly afraid of having to compete with anyone. Even Abraham Lincoln worried about freed slaves entering the marketplace and taking jobs from "good, hardworking Americans ".

If we spent half as much time and energy doing our jobs and competing as we do *****ing and moaning about the competition, we'd leave them in the dirt. Instead we have this weird idea that being Americans means we're entitled to coast for 40 years, then collect a fat pension.

Allow me to burst this bubble for ya . You and Elsie seem to see the problem as a matter of quality of workmanship and price , which simply isn't the case .

I , as well as thousands of other construction working Americans in this city have spent YEARS building good reputations and references by providing quality work for a FAIR price , regardless of their specific trades be they brickies , painters , roofers , etc .

I've never had a problem competing with fellow Americans because with few exceptions (GC's BIL does the same work type stuff) we all had the same rules to compete by .

Quality of workmanship issues : The "average" homeowner wouldn't know the difference between a good job or bad one if they were slapped with one .

Price issues : Any more because of the economy (I think) , people want the cheapest price they can get .

Joe American has to pay taxes , helpers , cost of doing business legitimately , workman's comp , have insurance , cost of living (food , mortgage , car note, etc) and doesn't get any help from the government because they make too much money to qualify for the help .

Illegal pedro doesn't have to "pay to play" (see above) because on paper , as far as the government is concerned , he's poor and needs assistance .

^^^ It's called an unfair advantage , yes , they has them .

The average homeowner isn't going to remodel their homes every year so the problem that creates is that you do a good job for them and then next year they call you back to do one more room for them .

I don't see the immigration issue as one of being racist or not .

IMO , Americans have become FAT , STUPID AND LAZY . What ever happened to the idea that if you don't work , you don't eat ?

My theory goes like this , far too many of those in the upper socioeconomic classes have way too much time to consider the philosophical conundrums that life throws at us .

They don't have callouses on their hands and have forgotten what it's like to actually work . Maybe they have good paying jobs and good benefits like plenty of time off .

This time is spent considering the struggle of the various ans and cans . They want to feel good about their selves so they support whatever liberal , PC, BS programs to help to help the poor , ans and cans .

By doing so , they in fact help destroy the American middle class .

But that doesn't matter because they feel good inside knowing that they've worked on a Habitat for humanity house , adopted a less fortunate foreign baby or maybe they volunteer at the local law firm that does pro bono work for immigrants .

Think we don't have said law firms in this city ? Last time I talked to a lawyer he wanted $1,000 for 3 hours "work" , WTF ?

They don't see illegal immigration as a problem because they aren't directly affected enough to snap out of the illusion of the liberal , PC world of rainbows and unicorns .

Think immigrants don't get guberment assistance ? I can take you to the south side and show you guberment housing (projects / red maple grove) built for the poor and immigrants like three years ago , or what's left of them now.

Jessie Jackson would be proud of the diversity in that place , every kind of an and can you think of . Never mind the dude with the black Bentley though , I'm sure he's a shining example of a model citizen .

Of course none of this matters much at all because in this brave new world of the "fundamentally changed America" we're expected to cast off the notion of American exceptualisim (sp), sit back & shut up while our "pursuit of happiness" gets trampled to hell and back just so we can be kinder , softer , gentler citizens of the world .

 

[Fletch]

Allow me to burst this bubble for ya . You and Elsie seem to see the problem as a matter of quality of workmanship and price , which simply isn't the case .

No, I've maintained that it is a matter of competition. There are more ways to compete than just quality and price.

Quality of workmanship issues : The "average" homeowner wouldn't know the difference between a good job or bad one if they were slapped with one .

Their loss then. Folks who don't understand the job they want done, but pay for it anyway, are only hurting themselves. Eventually they get sick of things breaking, falling apart, or not working properly, and they find someone who'll do it right, unless of course they're buying with government dollars.

Price issues : Any more because of the economy (I think) , people want the cheapest price they can get .

It has nothing to do with the economy. Buyers always want low prices, sellers always want high prices. If your favorite snack costs $2 and I offer it to you for $1, you'll buy it, all else being held equal, not because of the economy, but because you're not an idiot.

Joe American has to pay taxes , helpers , cost of doing business legitimately , workman's comp , have insurance , cost of living (food , mortgage , car note, etc) and doesn't get any help from the government because they make too much money to qualify for the help .

Illegal pedro doesn't have to "pay to play" (see above) because on paper , as far as the government is concerned , he's poor and needs assistance .

^^^ It's called an unfair advantage , yes , they has them .

I have nowhere disputed this, or said that it's fine with me.

The average homeowner isn't going to remodel their homes every year so the problem that creates is that you do a good job for them and then next year they call you back to do one more room for them .

The average car owner waits 2 - 5 years before buying another one. What's your point?

I don't see the immigration issue as one of being racist or not .

Me either. I see racism as being an issue of racism. My beef upthread is with the assumption that people of a certain physical description must necessarily be illegal immigrants. It's the same thing as seeing a black guy and immediately assuming he's a rapist or carjacker.

Just because some stupidly play the race card as soon as the subject of immigration is brought up, does not mean that every identification of racism is automatically invalid. I have argued just as vehemently with race-baiting liberals as I have with the folks here on the conservative side. There are people on this board who have known me long enough and on other boards who can attest to this.

IMO , Americans have become FAT , STUPID AND LAZY . What ever happened to the idea that if you don't work , you don't eat ?

My theory goes like this , far too many of those in the upper socioeconomic classes have way too much time to consider the philosophical conundrums that life throws at us .

They don't have callouses on their hands and have forgotten what it's like to actually work . Maybe they have good paying jobs and good benefits like plenty of time off .

So the greatest sin in America is thinking?

We are increasingly a knowledge-based economy. You are paid for what you know, not what you do. Any monkey can be taught to swing a hammer and drive a nail, but true craftsmanship comes from parts of the brain that the monkey doesn't possess this side of Planet of the Apes.

This time is spent considering the struggle of the various ans and cans . They want to feel good about their selves so they support whatever liberal , PC, BS programs to help to help the poor , ans and cans .

What are "ans and cans"?

By doing so , they in fact help destroy the American middle class .

I don't see the middle class being destroyed except in Michael Moore movies.

But that doesn't matter because they feel good inside knowing that they've worked on a Habitat for humanity house , adopted a less fortunate foreign baby or maybe they volunteer at the local law firm that does pro bono work for immigrants .

Think we don't have said law firms in this city ? Last time I talked to a lawyer he wanted $1,000 for 3 hours "work" , WTF ?

Again, paid for what he knows, not what he does. Look at that lawyer's student loan payments -- they're very likely to be larger than your mortgage.

They don't see illegal immigration as a problem because they aren't directly affected enough to snap out of the illusion of the liberal , PC world of rainbows and unicorns .

I've been affected by immigration and job exportation, as I've already described in this very thread. The competitive advantage of an immigrant does not go away (though it may be mitigated somewhat) as a result of his legal status. Even if Jose or Pedro or Guadalupe (or in my case, Apu or Chang) is 100% legal, he can still undersell you on dollar price. What then? Keep *****ing? Or find some way to distinguish yourself?

Think immigrants don't get guberment assistance ? I can take you to the south side and show you guberment housing (projects / red maple grove) built for the poor and immigrants like three years ago , or what's left of them now.

I don't recall this ever being a point of contention, so I'm puzzled as to your continued hammering of it. All sorts of people get government assistance, from dirty white rednecks to inner city black folks to immigrants of all stripes, legal and illegal. What of it? I'm certainly in favor of eliminating the assistance, and I've said so many times on this board, but even if that were done I get the idea that you would still be more focused more on who you have to compete with than the actual act of competing.

 

[88GT]

Of course it is. For all the yap about capitalism and the free market ideals America was supposedly founded on, Americans are deathly afraid of having to compete with anyone. Even Abraham Lincoln worried about freed slaves entering the marketplace and taking jobs from "good, hardworking Americans ".

If we spent half as much time and energy doing our jobs and competing as we do *****ing and moaning about the competition, we'd leave them in the dirt. Instead we have this weird idea that being Americans means we're entitled to coast for 40 years, then collect a fat pension.

Never in a million years will Americans working under the restrictions of the burdensome regulatory scheme now in place be able to compete with a work force capable of producing similar results for less.

 

[hornadylnl]

Never in a million years will Americans working under the restrictions of the burdensome regulatory scheme now in place be able to compete with a work force capable of producing similar results for less.

So are you in favor of a bigger or smaller government solution? Are you asking for more protectionary regulations or eliminating the regulations strangling American workers and businesses.